What's Next for the GXR?

[Rog Tallbloke]

Thanks Archie, problem solved. The camera had been left in some special mode where it takes 5 images in quick succession. I restored shooting defaults and the flash mode button now works fine. Looks like I'd better RTFM.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Hi Tom,
I can't get the flash mode button to work on the otherwise immaculate GXR I just collected. :roll:

This comes back to the question I raised above: What is the biggest sensor with Image stabilisation Ricoh can cram into a GXR module?

I'm guessing a sensor around the size of the one in the Nikon V1 would be around the limit. That size would work well with a 28, 35 or 40mm equiv pancake prime. For the Ricoh long zoom lens, the Pentax Q sensor is the same size as the existing unit, but seems to have very good high iso performance in comparison.

Rog

The module system must allow Ricoh infinite flexibility with sensor size. We already have various sizes of sensors from the P10 size through to the aps-c. In fact Ricoh probably arrived at the GXR body size with a view to the practicalities of fitting various sized sensors in attached modules. Therefore if the did decide to fit a FF sensor it might be more the module shape that would be necessary to mould around the apparatus inside it that would still fit on the locking rails. The lens mount would just be positioned to suit. However from a position of limited knowledge I guess that a FF sensor module is not that crazy from an engineering point of view. The Canon FF sensor bodies are not very obviously different basically from their aps-c brothers and sisters.

However there are other matters. If you want to keep the outfit as small as possible then the size of sensor is a compromise. Ricoh did tell us that they had to design a completely new focal plane shutter for the A12 mount. If they were to introduce image stabilisation on camera for a large sensor then they might well have to design and build their own mechanism unless they could buy in one from another manufacturer. They seem to have the smaller sensor image stabilisation in hand already.

If they went to FF then they have to acquire a suitable sensor that can be modified to work well with LM mount lenses. Presumably that could be done in time. But the end question with more and more companies "daring to use" sensors smaller than aps-c size is on whether long-term the aps-c is going to be "good enough" to wear the laurels of the universal "perceived best" standard size?

Right now a more urgent need might be to give devoted users a choice of a fixed evf on their GXR cameras. I once thought "new back" but now think that a flush-fitting fixed clip-on evf more easily left on camera semi-permanently would be a more realistic proposition provided that such a device could be suitably made.

But you are most likely talking "lens-modules" rather than "lens-mount-modules" in this regard again I have no real idea but marketing might dictate that future lens-modules might not directly replace the existing ones but rather supplement them.

An easy example is the present 50mm A12 macro f2.5. It might be best supplemented by a new faster 50mm on a later sensor but without macro facilities. The old module might then continue at a reduced price for those that still recognised its worth as a camera unit.

This is much the same technique as any camera manufacturer has built up a wide range of lenses for its customers.

I think we have to get our heads out of the idea that lens modules are digital cameras and that they need regularly updating every few years. The Ricoh GXR represents a system on which you expand rather like the waves of a ripple. Existing lens-modules will still be taking equally memorable images years from now. If they excite today they are unlikely to be any less exciting next year.

Tom

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

Tom, thanks for your insight. The big advantages I see in additional modules using a sensor around the size of the Nikon V1/J1 units are:

1) Sensor shift IS can be fitted in the confines of the module dimensions. This should give a couple of stops advantage which will minimise the difference in resolution between the smaller sensor and APS-C, particularly in more difficult light. Great for cloudy British and Canuck skies.

2) Shorter distance between lens and sensor - more compact mount unit for classic lenses. Also great for handling/discrete appearance.

Meantime, I will settle for the A12 50 as soon as I have raised the cash.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Tom, thanks for your insight. The big advantages I see in additional modules using a sensor around the size of the Nikon V1/J1 units are:

1) Sensor shift IS can be fitted in the confines of the module dimensions. This should give a couple of stops advantage which will minimise the difference in resolution between the smaller sensor and APS-C, particularly in more difficult light. Great for cloudy British and Canuck skies.

2) Shorter distance between lens and sensor - more compact mount unit for classic lenses. Also great for handling/discrete appearance.

Meantime, I will settle for the A12 50 as soon as I have raised the cash.

Rog

Have fun with your gear, lets get a progress report when you are ready.

Tom

 

[Duane Pandorf]

I agree that an A16 35mm equivalent lens module would be nice to see in the pipeline. Would be even better if Ricoh took a page from Leica and made this module a B&W only module.

Paul

Hey Paul! As you can see I'm still enjoying the GXR very much. Thanks for helping me back in November!

 

[Duane Pandorf]

He Rog,

This is the product I used this past week with a carabiner attached to my left shoulder harness:

http://optechusa.com/system-connectors/uni-loop.html

I also kept a dry bag in my pocket in case it rained I could quickly disconnect and get my camera out of the water. When I took my pack off I could easily disconnect the camera first so that I didn't smash it while removing my pack.

Of course one connector went through the left camera lug the other through the carabiner.

Thanks for the tip Duane, useful product.

Tom

You're welcome Tom. The GXR did bounce occasionally against my chest but I keep an LCD protector on. Plus I kept a dry bag at the ready for in case it rained.

 

[Duane Pandorf]

Thanks Archie, problem solved. The camera had been left in some special mode where it takes 5 images in quick succession. I restored shooting defaults and the flash mode button now works fine. Looks like I'd better RTFM.

Another of my complaints with all electronics today is you have to almost be an engineer to understand what's in the manual. Nothing is simple anymore.

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

Duane, I agree. It would be great if you could define what you need and somehow instruct the camera system to 'blank off' what you don't. But there again, the designers at Ricoh do better than most in making the system logical and customisable, so we shouldn't complain that they are making the system appeal to many different needs and shooting styles.

My approach is to get proficient and quick at using the basics, and then explore some of the 'extras' as and when I have time to waste trying things out and firing off shots to see what happens.

 

[ayewing]

Another of my complaints with all electronics today is you have to almost be an engineer to understand what's in the manual. Nothing is simple anymore.

One of the problems is that you have to read at least two manuals - one for the camera body and the other for the lens unit. The manuals are very terse and do not explain much. I found that I could understand the manuals only after a bit of hands on use of the camera. I am sure there is a lot of clever stuff I have yet to explore.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Guys,

I think that you can be as happy as Larry with the GXR and A12 mount by simply using A and M mode on the camera and the aperture dial and focus on the lens with little recourse beyond the EV rocker, Direct Screen, and Adj lever. The front dial can cycle shutter speed and the jog lever change ISO setting instantly. Set to S and you can have the camera try to compensate thinks by adjusting ISO for you. This makes it very much like an "olden days" RF camera and you hardly need to tackle the menu system.

However P mode with a lens-module does a good job as well.

For Rog we should note that the out of the box standard definition of Fn1 is as manual-focus/auto-focus toggle. Even if you don't wish to use the (harder) manual focus provisions of the lens-modules you can still use this function key in it's second use as an effective focus lock. Ricoh has also allowed its very useful (for the A12 mount) contrast peaking focus assist as an firmware upgrade to its lens modules as well. If on auto then this only confirms what part of the image the auto focus thinks is in focus, but it also gives a visual indication of dof as well. If you decide to use MF for a lens module then it must be of great help there as well.

To try and make sense of the full depth of the My mode settings I prepared a spreadsheet setting out the full bruhaha of what can be adjusted in these settings in logical order and referenced back to the page numbers of the official manual. I also made some suggestions for specimen settings for different purposes, but these were just "roughies" and are not meant to be anything brilliantly special. Ricoh would do well to make something similar as part of the official manual or at least available on-line directly from their site.

I made one for the GRDIII and updated it for the GXR before the A12 mount was released - so they are now both out of date but are buried on this site somewhere in downloadable modifiable Excel Spreadsheet form.

In the end I just think that you can use just as much of the firmware tricks in the GXR as you wish to do and it is not really necessary to lock them out from innocent prying eyes. Ricoh already do this, switch to "little green camera mode" on the top dial and rest easy (for a few minutes) :ugeek:

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Another of my complaints with all electronics today is you have to almost be an engineer to understand what's in the manual. Nothing is simple anymore.

One of the problems is that you have to read at least two manuals - one for the camera body and the other for the lens unit. The manuals are very terse and do not explain much. I found that I could understand the manuals only after a bit of hands on use of the camera. I am sure there is a lot of clever stuff I have yet to explore.

I have mentioned this before, but it does no harm to repeat it just in case Ricoh is listening:

The manuals have to be terse - they have a lot of territory to cover and would be even more intimidating if they were any more technical than they already are. Additionally they would cost a huge amount in technical journalist skills to expand further plus the extra printing costs.

I am very glad that Ricoh actually provide a printed manual in a compact form factor, many companies just give you this on a CD - print it if you must on single sided A4/letter-size paper and stapled together you can shove it in your tote bag for some light reading.

The lens unit manuals do take Ricoh's sport of brevity to new highs I admit.

What I and others have suggested is that Ricoh support a "technical manual" in pdf form on their site. Whether this is user generated or created by Ricoh does not matter, what does matter is that any outside submissions are checked for accuracy by Ricoh staff in the know and are re-worked to the same literary standards as their manuals.

In this manner Ricoh can continue to provide compact size, tersely written manals for everybody but would allow access to the deeper meaning in a file that could be kept on their site, constantly up to date, and could be downloaded by those that care for such extra detailed information.

Pavel has intimated interest is hoting such a technical manual on his site. I know that this site is a labour of love and that he has other things to do with his time so we have to be careful not to volunteer him for even more effort.

Tom

 

[alorenzen]

Guys,

I think that you can be as happy as Larry with the GXR and A12 mount by simply using A and M mode on the camera and the aperture dial and focus on the lens with little recourse beyond the EV rocker, Direct Screen, and Adj lever. The front dial can cycle shutter speed and the jog lever change ISO setting instantly. Set to S and you can have the camera try to compensate thinks by adjusting ISO for you. This makes it very much like an "olden days" RF camera and you hardly need to tackle the menu system.

However P mode with a lens-module does a good job as well.


Tom

I would a bit of disagree. In general your are right and modes working fine. But I ran often into the problem it stores the last setting. So in case I changed something It often happens I missed it and took a shoot with wrong setting. For that reason I lost a lot of unique moments/pictures.
For the personal setting (My1-3) works best. Switching between and Power On/Off will cause these setting. Everything resetted to what has been configured. Currently I work with 2 settings for my A12 50 (one with digital zoom) and one for my P10.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Guys,

I think that you can be as happy as Larry with the GXR and A12 mount by simply using A and M mode on the camera and the aperture dial and focus on the lens with little recourse beyond the EV rocker, Direct Screen, and Adj lever. The front dial can cycle shutter speed and the jog lever change ISO setting instantly. Set to S and you can have the camera try to compensate thinks by adjusting ISO for you. This makes it very much like an "olden days" RF camera and you hardly need to tackle the menu system.

However P mode with a lens-module does a good job as well.


Tom

I would a bit of disagree. In general your are right and modes working fine. But I ran often into the problem it stores the last setting. So in case I changed something It often happens I missed it and took a shoot with wrong setting. For that reason I lost a lot of unique moments/pictures.
For the personal setting (My1-3) works best. Switching between and Power On/Off will cause these setting. Everything resetted to what has been configured. Currently I work with 2 settings for my A12 50 (one with digital zoom) and one for my P10.

Quite right, I agree with your disagreement. I was only meaning that someone who just wanted to use the camera as "a camera" in the old sense could simply use the dial settings and fire away. There is no compulsion to dive into "modes".

As you have noted this has the problem that your previous settings are remembered and it is up to the user to make sure they are "right" for any session. However I have go into trouble before now from others by suggesting modes be used and that there is a conflict when modes are simply used to store lens data. I agree that a mode could contain a standard setting and the details of a single lens only. In this manner, three lenses easily, six not too hard, and twelve with a bit of gymnastics could be handled - but only with a single basic setting. If you wanted three setting types then at most only four lenses could be handled but the mental concentration would be hardly worth it.

The modes are better to reset the camera into known configurations at the flick of a dial. I contrast this with individual lens data being assigned to a mode. As soon as you do this each mode has to be a "standard setting" with the lens data being the only difference. Not only does it fly in the face of the idea of mode settings in a general sense but it is quite incapable of dealing with more than a handful of lenses before the lens data in mode system starts to fail. Therefore although I like lens data recorded the present system will not work for me so I don't use it.

The lens data needs a separate data base.

As an example of how a no-mode camera can cause a problem - years ago I took my Canon dslr camera on a lengthy trip up the Queensland coast - all 1,500 kms of it. I thought the sky and sea seemed "very blue". I at first thought it was just because in-fact they were "really blue", as they were. It was only after the second day when I reviewed he images larger size on a computer screen that I realised that I had been taking inside images on "tungsten" white balance the night before I left and although I had carefully checked all my settings I had missed white balance. I guess it has happened to all but the most particular at some stage.

Tom

 

[meditate]

fullformat prime lens series....

a36 24mm, 36MP
a36 35mm, 36MP
a36 70mm, 36MP

i want the smallest ff camera, please from ricoh...price doesnt matter.

and finally a hdr mode. as nowadays nearly all have this...funny because with the cx1 ricoh was one of the first, but sadly never on the gxr. it is great for trying out while shooting, if u have the right position and that, THAN you can always do a bracketing shoot and make the hdr at home with pc.

continous af mode from the ricoh cx6 !!! (series with af)

greetings,

 

[Duane Pandorf]

What I'd really like to see is for Voigt to produce a 24mm f2 lens with 39mm filter so that I can have 35mm on my existing GXR.

Sorry but I'm not interested in working with any bigger files than what my existing GXR-M produces. The IQ is plenty sufficient for me.

The above lens would cover my travel kit perfectly:

? Voigt 24mm f2 (35mm)
Leica 35mm f2 (50mm)
Leica 50mm f2 (75mm)

Substitute the Voigt with their 15mm and I've got a super wide.

The Zeiss 25mm is just too big and there's no way I can afford the Leica 24mm.

 

[AlbertTRAL]

The above lens would cover my travel kit perfectly:

? Voigt 24mm f2 (35mm)
Leica 35mm f2 (50mm)
Leica 50mm f2 (75mm)

Duane, this means that, after your tests, the planar has not convinced you? What do you see, think or feel that the cron does better than the planar?

 

[Duane Pandorf]

The above lens would cover my travel kit perfectly:

? Voigt 24mm f2 (35mm)
Leica 35mm f2 (50mm)
Leica 50mm f2 (75mm)

Duane, this means that, after your tests, the planar has not convinced you? What do you see, think or feel that the cron does better than the planar?

I will only know once I try the 50mm Summicron but it will most likely be the size that determines my choice. I really want the smallest compact kit for my travels. The Summicron takes 39mm filters and the Zeiss 43mm. Both current lenses are about the same size. However, the Summicron Type 4 is lighter at 195g vice 230g for the Zeiss. If I include the Voigt 21 Skopar and the Leica 90mm f2.8 they all use 39mm filters.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Meyer Gorlitz Orestor 100mm f2.8 in M42. Seems a pretty neat compact little lens and 150mm equivalent. Test images so far have been good, hope to try it out properly over the weekend.

Swimming against the tide I expect.

And I am taking my Takumar 17mm f4.0 Fisheye M42 as well for the other end of the spectrum - just love humping gear (grin)

Tom

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

If anyone from Ricoh/Pentax is reading this thread, I have a request.

Please can you build us some new lensor's built around an image stabilised 1" BSI-CMOS at around 12 megapixels.

A 24-72mm 'GX300' Zoom with optional 18mm wide and 2x telephoto
A 35mm prime which can also use the optional lenses
A PK mount unit so we can use nice old Ricoh and Pentax SLR lenses

I believe this mount unit would be a nice way to unite the Pentax and Ricoh owners around the newly merged company.

Thank you very much.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

If anyone from Ricoh/Pentax is reading this thread, I have a request.

Please can you build us some new lensor's built around an image stabilised 1" BSI-CMOS at around 12 megapixels.

A 24-72mm 'GX300' Zoom with optional 18mm wide and 2x telephoto
A 35mm prime which can also use the optional lenses
A PK mount unit so we can use nice old Ricoh and Pentax SLR lenses

I believe this mount unit would be a nice way to unite the Pentax and Ricoh owners around the newly merged company.

Thank you very much.

Rog

Maybe the 1" sensor with a Q mount?

Maybe some new versions of the legendary GR primes? Not sure what the crop factor on a 1" sensor is. But the GR28mm in LTM is a cracking good lens at a cracking good price. So Ricoh can make exquisite "small volume" lenses at collector-prices.

So the "GX300" zoom already exists with the S10 module. They are hardly going to dump on their remaining stocks of this module by superseding it?

And you can adapt PK mount lenses quite easily to the A12 mount today - no need for a PK mount to use your old Ricoh and Pentax lenses, just a PK->LM adapter..

It you really want to use modern automatic "dslr" PK lenses you can buy a Pentax K-01. I would find it hard to fathom why Ricoh might want a fully functional modern PK module for the GXR. It would limit the lenses that might be attached to PK or any lens mount that could be adapted to PK only Just like the K-01 is similarly restricted).

Meanwhile the LM mount very easily adapts almost anything from LTM/LM upwards in flange back distance.

A M4/3 or Sony mount makes more sense than a PK mount module, but if I were a gambling man (which I am not) I would suggest that a Q mount module (with whatever sensor works best) makes even more sense to Ricoh.

So I admit to being a little ray of sunshine.


Tom