Start Settings readout

[Tom Caldwell]

"When the camera turns off, the settings are saved both in camera body and camera unit.

Choose the destination to read out the settings from Body or Camera Unit"

Page 150 Ricoh GXR Manual

My question is how to understand this for a practical application.

When your new GXR arrives it is set to "read out" from the body. Firstly we must first understand the slightly tortured English of this very short explanation. " destination ... read out .. from ...". [ EDIT] Does this mean exactly what is says? That you can choose between "saved to both" as the first sentence implies (default is "camera body" or does it mean (as it can only logically be) that you can either save your current camera settings to either body or camera unit? [NO - it always saves to camera body AND module.]

[EDIT] Or does the first sentence mean "can be saved" and not "are saved"? [NO - is always saved]

[EDIT] In this definition there seems to be no explanation of where the camera actually 'reads in' camera settings when it is switched on. Presumably it defaults to the camera unit unless there is a conflict. [NO - the original setting is read from body, but it can be changed in firmware] Or does the second sentence really mean "Choose the source from which the settings are read in (body or Camera unit)" ? [YES]

Basically this seems a method that might be used to transfer camera settings from one similar module to another.

However the sentences read together are ambiguous to say the least - they can be interpreted to mean opposite things.

{EDIT] Can it be used, for example, to read your P10 settings to your friend's GXR back by simply mounting your module on their GXR camera back and switching it on and then re-inserting their own P10 module? [YES - but first set their camera back to read from module]

Elsewhere on the GXR-M part of the forum I noted that by inserting a P10 module that had been upgraded to firmware v1.50 into a newly purchased GXR back it promptly ran me through a dialogue to upgrade this new back to v1.50 as well. This is for certain I saw it happen. [A happy accident?]

[EDIT] Trying to transfer settings between similar modules - eg: M mount modules seems more fraught, I thought it might be doing this but my P10 is acting quite dumb on this subject. Will have to wait until my original GXR body come back from repair before I can test his further. Presently the P10 seems unable to remember it's settings on a new camera back. [BEWARE I must have attached the P10 to a pristine out the box GXR back set to read from camera back - it then proceeded to write its blank sheet settings on to my P10 - therefore resetting the P10 to defaults - if you wish to upgrade your module settings on to your brand new GXR back then make sure it is set to read from module first!]

[CORRECT METHOD] - select start settings read from module then insert existing module with your settings (modes, functions, etc), switch on (read module settings into volatile memory), select start settings read from body [IMPORTANT], switch off (record start settings to body and module). Insert new module, switch on (read body settings into volatile memory), switch off (thereby saving start settings to the body and module). Repeat with all modules you wish to upgrade. At the last module synchronised select start settings read from module before you switch off [to preserve the future module settings from being over-written and also to make sure that multiple camera backs always act the same with this module mounted].

Does this work? You betcha ...

So how are settings transferred from one GXR camera back to another?

Easy - just leave your GXR camera back set to read from module - wherever that module goes the camera back will follow.

I have edited this original post that I made when I was still confused as to how it all worked - now that I have worked it out my early confusion was quite unhelpful.

Tom

 

[thelps]

I'll have to buy a GXR so I can understand the sequence here.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I'll have to buy a GXR so I can understand the sequence here.

Grin

Sufficient that if you have more than one module and espcially one of them is an A12 mount then setting load from module in camera setup is great (and only one tweak in the settings). Your various modules then remember however they have been customised. This is more true for the A12 mount as it really needs some peculiar to that module custom settings that are less useful on any other module that you mght also use.

The next stage is when you get to more than one GXR back. Very helpfully loading from module then allows your nicely set up module to replicate itself on any other back that you might use. Your custom settings are transportable seamlessly. So far so good.

The next stage is when you actually get more than one back and more than one A12 mount. Ideally I would want each A12 mount to work identically without the labour of individually setting them up and also to keep them more or less in synch with each other - well you can always ask.

Therefore the musings and my attempts to get it work - I thought it was working but now I am not sure.

Getting all this to the "everybody else" level is hard. Not many have more than one back let alone multiple backs and multiple A12 mounts. As far as lens modules go I only have a P10, and I may or may not get others.

On the other hand I have grown an appreciable collection of used manual lenses and love the lot. I am trying to restrict my adapters but still manage LTM, FD, PK and M42 as well as some M mounts for proper excitement.

The practicality is that often changing a prime lens might mean changing an adapter as well, more of a pain. Buying a scad of LTM->M adapters and leaving them fitted might work but many LTM lenses need special end caps that are not easily found in M mount fitting (if they exist).

So like all good professionals (I am neither good nor professional) you end up with more than one body/adapter combination and you have "different" cameras on location and not a body with "different lenses". There was some talk about this years ago and to many the thought of each lens/module on the GXR being a different camera did get some airplay. However it seems that most have gone the exchange the module way.

Even today there is talk of a separate "40mm" GRD which might lend itsef to the GRD being carried as "two cameras" without undue bulkiness.

So I am a pioneer, sort of explorer type, often ahead of the way a market develops, the nut case that does the head banging so that others might more easily follow.

I think that more and more people will become content with the camera they have. Instead of buying a new camera because they like the new fancy tail fin assembly it might become more sensible in practice to be absolutely happy with what is here and now and go for the convenience on the job of just switching cameras when you need to go from that delicious prime and need something a bit longer.

More bulk maybe, but if you were really serious in the past you had a camera bag(s) big enough for a set of porters to carry the kit. Most just use a willing enthusiastic wife ..... (if they can get away with it).

Two or three GXR bodies fitted with the A12 mount and a suitable small range of good lenses will only take a fraction of the space/weight of a serious dslr kit and be just as useful.

We are now getting beyond the image of a quick and dirty easily carried but high performing (say) GRD to the image of the professional with a wide ranging kit that can be carried much more easily than a similar dslr bag of kit.

That I am thinking a bit further outside the square ... well I am silly enough to be in that hilltop paddock, might as well confront the issue with the appropriate gear to see how it works.

So far it is working really well.

Tom

 

[streetshooter]

Tom, I gotta tell ya....I read everything you wrote a few times no less. I realize that I'm from Philly and even tho it's very similar to OZ, there are some small differences.
To start, I have 2 backs and 3 lensors. I have both backs to start from the body..... Please explain why I do that and also why I should do something else.
That's right, I have no idea why I am doing it the way I am so I need you to shed light on my confusion.
Thank You Kind Sir in advance....
Don

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Maybe less involved words?

Don,

I bought a P10 kit to get into the GXR before the A12 module was released. I had it set up for my own modes preferences.

When the A12 mount came out I painfully replicated at least the base modes into the new model as best as I could. I saw no other way to do it. The only problem is that the camera had it's own ideas on setup - especially for vacant slots no used by the A12 mount. Therefore I was not ever completely sure that the camera would be acting the same way every time I had the A12 mount in place. Then someone mentioned use the "load from module" setting (default is load from camera back). Immediately whatever you have set your module to, any module, remains the same over multiple backs - great. Therefore you can plug yor nicely set up A12 mount into any back and have it work in exactly the same familiar way. One of Ricoh's largely unsung great facilities. Now most folks if they have an A12 50mm lens module will sensibly only have the one. Even a crazy like myself isn't that crazy. But there is another crazy logic in having more than one A12 mount. If this is the case then my problem is in getting my settings for my first A12 mount into my brand new shining untouched by grubby photography fingers dumb default settings A12 mount. This of course is other than by sitting myself down with two cameras and laboriously setting them up just the same.

At the moment the only way that seems possible in my present understanding is to fairly slowly copy each mode setting on to a sd card, one by one, remembering to give each copied setting your designated name. Then copying these modes on to the new A12 one by one. Even then you don't get any adjustment lever changes made or your custom Fn settings. There must be a simpler way to keep everything in synch. If you decide to seriously change one of your preferred modes then do you have to save this and then remember to copy it on to the other camera?

I am sure that there is a way in juggling the "read from" parameters in the firmware. But to read the two short sentences that Ricoh spares for the entire issue on page 150 of the manual if you don't end up confused by the tortured English then you are a smarter man than I am.

The switching of mounts from back to back and keeping the settings intact is so easy and naturally what you might expect that it is "insane" but setting up your new A12 mount to replicate and stay replicated is so much harder.

But maybe I am making it more complicated than it really is?

It would be great for instance if you had a primary A12 mount which you always used and a second A12 mount with a different lens on it that you used when necessary in a shoot. Your running changes on the first camera you decide to make permnent. Ok - at the end of the day you temporarily swap modules - switch the camera on then off and your second camera is set up just the same as the first. Replace the modules the way the were and everything is hunky-dory. This is how I think it should work.

Not sure if that actually does work but I will investigate.

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Moving settings between modules

Further thoughts

As I understand it - the camera always stores the current settings used to the camera body and the installed module.

It can optionally read form the module or the body.

By setting it to "module" you can move the module about and it will always work the same - either by swapping your own modules on your one camera body or by attaching a set up module to another camera body.

The trick is to use the camera body to copy settings to a new similar type module.

It occurs to me that if you switch from module to camera body before switching your camera off when it is attached to a fully set up module then the settings will still be saved to module and body. Then if you insert a brand new default settings module into the camera body it will not try and read from the new module but will read the existing settings from the camera body unit. Therefore when the camera is then switched off the body settings will be again recorded to the body (unchanged) but will over-write the default settings on the new camera unit.

You can then switch the camera back to read "from module" and each module should be identically set up.

I am grasping for the logic of it all here, maybe I have now "cracked" it?

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Re: Moving settings between modules

Further thoughts

As I understand it - the camera always stores the current settings used to the camera body and the installed module.

It can optionally read from the module or the body.

By setting it to "module" you can move the module about and it will always work the same - either by swapping your own modules on your one camera body or by attaching a set up module to another camera body.

The trick is to use the camera body to copy settings to a new similar type module.

It occurs to me that if you switch from module to camera body before switching your camera off when it is attached to a fully set up module then the settings will still be saved to module and body. Then if you insert a brand new default settings module into the camera body it will not try and read from the new module but will read the existing settings from the camera body unit. Therefore when the camera is then switched off the body settings will be again recorded to the body (unchanged) but will over-write the default settings on the new camera unit.

You can then switch the camera back to read "from module" and each module should be identically set up.

I am grasping for the logic of it all here, maybe I have now "cracked" it?

Tom

Hey! works like a charm - cracked it. Nothing like a bit of logic to cure a whole lot of confused rambling around.

 

[AlbertTRAL]

Re: Moving settings between modules

if you switch from module to camera body before switching your camera off...the settings will still be saved to module and body.

Tom, do you mean that when we choose body in the start settings readout menu, when switching the camera off, the settings will be written in BOTH, obviously the body but ALSO in the module?
and when choosing module in the start settings readout menu, only the module will be written?

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Re: Moving settings between modules

if you switch from module to camera body before switching your camera off...the settings will still be saved to module and body.

Tom, do you mean that when we choose body in the start settings readout menu, when switching the camera off, the settings will be written in BOTH, obviously the body but ALSO in the module?
and when choosing module in the start settings readout menu, only the module will be written?

The camera always writes to both body and module. But you can choose from where it READS when you switch on.

The clue is that there are actually three storage areas - on the body- on the module - in volatile camera memory (in use).
Therefore when the settings are read from whatever source is selected they go into volatile memory to be used.

So if you insert a "clean" module you don't want it read into volatile camera memory therefore you would have the camera set to read from the body which would already be primed by your previously inserted reference module (with the camera set to read from the module). You can then continue to insert further modules sequentially- insert- switch on - switch off and then record the registered settings module by module.

The information on page 150 of the manual is precise but a little ambiguous.

The settings are ALWAYS saved to the body and ALSO the currently inserted module.

You can CHOOSE on whether the camera reads from - either the module or the body.

Set read from module. Insert setup reference module (stores to module AND BODY). Switch to read from body (now same as reference module settings). Insert modules to upgrade settings (stores to MODULE and body) sequentially as above. Done.

Switch back to reading from module so that settings in each module are preserved.

Takes a little getting used to but once grasped it is quite simple and logical.

Tom

 

[AlbertTRAL]

Thanks Tom for pointing me again to page 150. I was just assuming by default that the reading destination was also the writing one! Need new glasses! :ugeek: :lol:

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Thanks Tom for pointing me again to page 150. I was just assuming by default that the reading destination was also the writing one! Need new glasses! :ugeek: :lol:

Albert

The second part of the explanation in the English language manual is what is known as "tortured English". Where the words are a bit mangled and appear ambiguous. Consequently it says one thing when it really obviously means the other.

I am glad you have figured it out. It is a brilliantly simple concept really but it is hard to understand initially and even harder to explain precisely in a few words.

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Synchronising multiple GXR camera backs

I posed the question of synchronising more than one GXR camera back earlier in this thread when I was still feeling my way.

In fact this is the easy part.

As the camera will always save all it's presently loaded settings to both currently inserted module and the camera back when switched off if the camera is set to read from module then it will always record the inserted modules settings whichever GXR back you might be using.

The presently inserted modules settings always take priority no matter which back is attached therefore each "camera" (module/back combination) will always behave exactly the same.

One other nuance that I have not fully explored and where other experimenters might flush out the detail:

Some module settings obviously take priority and cannot be over-ridden. For example my P10 module quite happily accepted my A12 mount settings for functions and modes but cunningly insisted on continuing to use the zoom rocker to work the zoom. This is how it should be and this fnction must be "hard wired" into the module itself and cannot be over-written by heavy-handed bumbling users (smile).

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

All praise to the firmware guru

i think anyone steeped in Ricoh lore must appreciate how advanced the Ricoh firmware generally is.

However the firmware design for the GXR must have posed huge problems in its correct implementation. The act of making "two cameras" by splitting overlapping functions between camera body (control) and the various camera modules (implementation) must have caused mind boggling practical problems.

Modules can be very different - from the A12 module with no zoom or focus capabilty to zooms, macros and prime lenses. Given that the very serious problem of keeping an extended collection of modules and more than one camera back synchronised would be a very difficult challenge it is good to see that the Ricoh firmware design team has risen to the challenge and the result is very well thought out.

Harder is the somewhat ambiguous two sentence brief "explanation" on page 150 of the manual. It is actually quite correct if the second sentence is properly understood. But harder to explain fully without turning two sentences into a small book. It is up to a user, thinking slowly and logically just how this gem of firmware might work in practice.

Once understood it becomes a very powerful tool and it is very easy to keep a growing fleet of GXR modules and even some "spare" GXR backs synchronised to just the way any individual user has customised their set up.

Can I envisage clubby Ricoh "swap meets" where "really serious" Ricoh users will exchange modules in some sort of love in as the secret settings of their success are passed around? Hardly, such inner dark secret workings are the privilege of the elite and not to be shared with mere tinkerers. (grin)

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I have gone back to my first confused (quite inaccurate) post on this thread and edited it the light of how it REALLY works.

Sorry if I caused any unwanted mental anguish in the logic of it all - I was confused by the ambiguous words in the manual. [Blame the manual again - Ed]

At least I think i might have made it past the first year of my degree in Ricoh firmware ....

Tom

 

[AlbertTRAL]

...if you wish to upgrade your module settings on to your brand new GXR back then make sure it is set to read from module first!]...

Tom, is there no inconvenient to power up the body without a module?

 

[Tom Caldwell]

...if you wish to upgrade your module settings on to your brand new GXR back then make sure it is set to read from module first!]...

Tom, is there no inconvenient to power up the body without a module?

Albert,

Presumably you already own a GXR kit and have set up a module already . Hopefully you have bought another kit with an as yet unused module. Switch on with new kit, change to read start settings from module, insert module that is already set up, switch on then off, insert fresh unused module, switch on then off.

I agree it must be tricky with the purchase of a new back by itself. There must be a way, I must think about it some more.

You can use a camera back by itself, but only to review images.

Tom

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Albert,

I think your good logic has found a weakness. Try as I might I could not work a way around setting up a new camera back using this method if you currently only own one back and a set up module without destroying your module settings which wold revert back to the defalts. This would assume the unusual case of two camera backs and only one module.

If you had at least two fully set up modules and one camera back then bought another camera back you could work the settings transfer by temporarily sacrificing the settings on one of the modules to set the new back to read from module. Then you could restore the reset module by using the other module with it's original settings intact.

The only problem is in tweaking back any differences between module settings.

Tom

 

[ZDP-189]

Presumably, settings that can be saved on SD can be used to transfer settings between modules? I wonder if people would like to share files?

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Presumably, settings that can be saved on SD can be used to transfer settings between modules? I wonder if people would like to share files?

SD CARD TRANSFER

I presume that you are right. I am happy to share mine but suggest that there are others who are more expert that I am in getting "perfection". Mine are a moving feast and have changed as my requirements change. I also uploaded a spreadsheet on to this site which attempted to show all the various settings that could be adjusted and also some suggested samples. I also note as others have done that the very basic fundamental settings are few: start in - P,A,S or M mode; raw/jpg setting; start aperture (if it applies); start ISO setting; etc (what is "basic" depends on the user) but there are a whole host of other settings that might apply to specific needs. If for instance you you do a reasonable amount of specific shooting such as ski-jump photography, circus, or interval mode, then you could have quickly accessed setting specifically for these purposes. Furthermore some like to hold over an entire mode just for a single lens type and make all the other adjustments manually as they shoot. By doing this their EXIF can record more of the lens in use information, even more usefully specific lenses can have individual software corrections applied.


USE AS MANUAL LENS DATABASE

However the trouble is that if you have a few manual lenses this system can be useful, but the lenses that you use are more easily remembered. On the other hand for a large number of lenses it is effectively bordering useless (as you would be continually updating the lens information that is buried deeply in the menu system), this offers many opportunities to record the wrong EXIF data (as you start to suffer from lens data updating fatigue), and this is the very situation where recording the correct lens in use is very necessary as remembering the lens/image connection soon becomes mind boggling in it's complexity. This system whilst quite good is too difficult for me to work in practice - I have far too many lenses to choose from and despite being a "systems fanatic" this is one too many a complexity for me to keep up with. Consider filling up three My Modes, six Box Modes, and six Modes stored on SD, maybe fifteen lenses, but the My Modes are erased as Box Modes over-write them. So you have a maximum of 14 lenses. Firstly you not only have to name those lenses in the Modes as well as naming them for EXIF otherwise you will not get the little mention of what "mode" you have just switched to as a backup as to what "lens" you have selected. Then as you will by nature read spare lens EXIF data randomly from the Box Mode into My Modes or SD stored EXIF data randomly into My Mode you will almost need a little scratch pad to remember which mode is doing what at any given time. Then - just when the world has become simple - you acquire another lens - drat! which lens to you delete and where do you put the new lens which surely will soon become a favourite. Mind boggling - with just three manual lenses you will have a good chance of making this work. Surely good enough for most.

I have suggested a separate lens database scrollable at start up and remembering at least 20, possibly 30 lenses in order of use-activity. Defaulting to the last lens used at start up and having an easily invoked "Unknown Lens" setting for when you do not have time to set the new lens into the database. But allowing lens data to be applied to the EXIF of individual images in playback mode. Seems more intuitive and practical.


"EVEN MORE" SIMPLE CAMERA-BACK/MODULE SYNCHRONISATION

Personally I have found that multiple camera-backs/modules can have their entire settings synchronised very quickly using the load start settings function. I have reduced this to just a few steps.

Set all ten of your camera backs to "load from module". Once you have one module set up to your satisfaction change that camera back to "load from camera back". Run your remaining nine modules through the same camera back - switch off - exchange module - switch on - repeat until all your modules are synchronised. If you wish to leave that particular camera back as your "reference" setup then leave it set to read from camera back. But you have to remember which one. Now any time you wish to reset a module to YOUR default settings you just insert it into this camera back. If you wish to make the modules set the standard - which is less confusing - then reset the reference camera back to read from module - as the others are set. If camera backs are set to read from module then any module inserted will automatically save these settings to the camera back.

So you could devise strategies for easily keeping multiple camera backs behaving similarly or for separating the behaviour of lens modules from the A12 mount or even in allowing your module settings to blow with the wind and have them reset to a known "standard" by using one camera back as the reference standard. (Quite a luxury). On the other hand it would be nice if all that data could be uploaded to computer for future access.

How might this be done? I think I should leave some fun in figuring it out for others to enjoy.

 

[ZDP-189]

I am not sure that anyone's preferred settings can/should be considered perfection by others. However, I think it would be interesting to see shooting setting combinations that individuals prefer for certain tasks, such as street shooting or landscapes. I would also like to see interesting filter combinations to achieve a particular 'look'.