I really don't see why there is a need for a new body. It seems very crude to use external sensors rather than through the lens sensors for focusing. I am no engineer but can't see why an indicator can't be introduced using the same electronics as the contrast method existing autofocus lenses use. Instead of the lens stopping when the camera thinks a subject is in focus (as auto focus lenses do) why can't the command to stop the lens be used to turn on a light in the viewfinder or on the screen? As this is for manual focus the speed problems with contract focus detection doesn't seem relevant. As DSLR lenses must also use through the lens sensors for their in-focus indicators is this an alternative? Maybe not if the mirrors etc are used.
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Tell your friends about us!Ricoh GXR Leica M mount!!!
- Thread starter becauseitsnice
- Start date
so, if the m mount unit comes out
so, if it is at a reasonable price
so, if the manual control is good
the question is: which lens will you get with it? (assume you don't already have one m-mount lens)
we are currently having 28mm and 50mm with Ricoh that offer AF
will you still get lens with similar foc-length? (of course can get one of those with really large F-number, like the 50mm f/1.0
)
what will you be looking for when getting this unit and lens that follow it?
here is a list of current m-mount lens on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M_mount
by the way, in case you haven't seen the Japanese GR people testing the m-mount, here is a link: http://www.grblog.jp/
Photo by a Voigtlander
Photo by a Ricoh 55mm F1.2
so, if it is at a reasonable price
so, if the manual control is good
the question is: which lens will you get with it? (assume you don't already have one m-mount lens)
we are currently having 28mm and 50mm with Ricoh that offer AF
will you still get lens with similar foc-length? (of course can get one of those with really large F-number, like the 50mm f/1.0
)what will you be looking for when getting this unit and lens that follow it?
here is a list of current m-mount lens on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M_mount
by the way, in case you haven't seen the Japanese GR people testing the m-mount, here is a link: http://www.grblog.jp/
Photo by a Voigtlander
Photo by a Ricoh 55mm F1.2
Yes - there are a lot of ifs and buts and of course different photographers have different lens ideas. I have both A12 lenses and the Leica and Zeiss lenses mentioned earlier. I am not sure how well the 135mm Leica lens will handle on the GXR but certainly better than on the M8 which has no frame lines for this lens and even if it did the view would be tiny through the viewfinder. I did forget to mention the Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5 Heliar I have which will turn in to a nice 21mm lens (OK 22.5mm) that should allow easier focusing. This wide Zone Focusing should be possible in some circumstances.
Luminous Landscape have an interesting article with this lens attached to an M8 and show some nice images.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... oigt.shtml
Luminous Landscape have an interesting article with this lens attached to an M8 and show some nice images.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... oigt.shtml
Sorry eidlac - I didn't finish my post.
I did see the article on grblog but hadn't spotted that if the wide angle shot really was taken with a Voigtlander lens on a GXR it must have been the model I have and doesn't look too bad. A pity there wasn't a higher resolution photo to look at. For others, here is a link to the translated page.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8
I did see the article on grblog but hadn't spotted that if the wide angle shot really was taken with a Voigtlander lens on a GXR it must have been the model I have and doesn't look too bad. A pity there wasn't a higher resolution photo to look at. For others, here is a link to the translated page.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8
odklizec":aobjp1ow said:
When, a while back, when Ricoh hinted that the focal plane shutter would require an alternative, i.e. not a live view, focus mechanism, I was delighted:
But all the glimpses are still showing the EVF and SLR lenses which gives me concern:
The shutter has to be open for live-view focusing then close just before a photo.
It must then open, capture the image, then close - to stop further light accumulating during sensor read out;
and finally open again ready for the next live view event .
For all this to be done rapidly, so as to minimize the double shutter delay there will be increased acoustic noise -
clack-clack ... clack-clack whirr !
If on the other hand they had stuck to supporting purely RF cam equipped lenses,
and used an ( electronically ) coupled rangefinder approach with no live view :
The shutter opens to capture the image ( very little delay ), closes for read out and is the re-cocked for next time -
clack ... clack, whirr.
I would like to think both modes of operation exist and they are holding back their cards
and not showing mock ups with a cam coupling in the mount ( for the hush-hush new EVF/eCoupled OVF ).
But I'm no longer counting on it or confident enough to buy a GXR body in advance of the official full details announcement.
ZDP-189
New Member
Tri-X":tekb7djn said:
Agreed. This system has the potential to be awesome but it also has the potential to blow. Right now probably nobody outside select departments in Ricoh knows which. I'm not going to pre-order; in fact I've stayed away from the entire GXR system, because for me it all hangs on this.
odklizec
PK
I'm afraid, the hypothetical new body with external focus sensors will have nothing to do with focus confirmation.pr28893":19psaost said:
The thing is that reliable focus confirmation is only possible with the phase detection sensors placed INSIDE the camera, i.e. behind the lens. This is why this feature work so well in DSLRs and also why the DSLR AF is so fast if compared with most of today's mirrorless cameras with contrast detection based AF. Simply even the DSLRs use the "external" PD AF sensor, except it's build inside the camera. Because there is no mirror in mirrorless cameras, it's impossible to add the PD-AF sensor into the mirrorless bodies.
The problem of contrast detection based AF is that it works slightly different than PD-AF and so the focus confirmation is much harder to implement. It requires a series of small in-out steps to compare the contrast and decide if the scene is contrast enough and therefore sharp. With PD-based focus confirmation you can rotate the focus ring in one direction and the PD sensor will tell the camera if the scene is sharp enough or not. As far as I know, none mirrorless camera produced so far is equipped with the focus confirmation. This may explain how hard is to make the focus confirmation reliable on contrast detection based systems?
Sony in their newest NEX-C3 introduced something called Peaking . A quite interesting focus confirmation feature, which may be a solution? The question is, how precise and fast to use this feature could be in case of wide open lenses like f1.4?
However, back to the original question, the external PD-AF sensor placed on hypothetical new GXR body (which I'm certain will be done), will most probably be useful "only" for noticeably faster AF of existing or future AF-based modules. I'm afraid, the PD sensors placed on the GXR body would be useless for focus confirmation. It would require some kind of electro-mechanical coupling (or something like rangefinder) to make the external PD sensor useful for focus confirmation. And I guess this would be an enormous task with very uncertain result?
kanzlr
New Member
Tri-X":14vw57f1 said:
you know how a RF works? I am sure you do
you have two windows with a parallax view that you align. Thats not possible to simulate with just the image sensor as a source, you'd need a second window at least. So my guess is that it will be just a 2x zoom like now.
odklizec
PK
We started a little chat about the M mount lenses for GXR here:eidiacc":asz25hyx said:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5545
Because of the 1.5 crop factor of M mount module, it will be very hard to find small and optically fast 18.3mm (28mm equivalent) M lens. At best, you can find some 18mm lenses starting at f3.5 or similar. I think the 28mm area is very well covered by the A12 28 module and there is not much need for such M lens. As for the 50mm, there is plenty of 35mm M lenses covering this area. I personally would rather get the CV 40/1.4, which on M mount turns to 60/1.4. It's very nice build and small lens with great optical quality. 60mm focal length could be very useful if one don't want to disturb the photographed subjects. True, longer focal length could be a problem if shooting inside. But this is a problem with 50mm lens as well. I think the CV40/1.4 will be my first and main M mount lens. But I'm undecided yet about the SC/MC variant
SC should be better for B&W photography, MC is more contrast and so better for color photography. Decisions...decisions...odklizec":2757fnfq said:We started a little chat about the M mount lenses for GXR here:eidiacc":2757fnfq said:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5545
Because of the 1.5 crop factor of M mount module, it will be very hard to find small and optically fast 18.3mm (28mm equivalent) M lens. At best, you can find some 18mm lenses starting at f3.5 or similar. I think the 28mm area is very well covered by the A12 28 module and there is not much need for such M lens. As for the 50mm, there is plenty of 35mm M lenses covering this area. I personally would rather get the CV 40/1.4, which on M mount turns to 60/1.4. It's very nice build and small lens with great optical quality. 60mm focal length could be very useful if one don't want to disturb the photographed subjects. True, longer focal length could be a problem if shooting inside. But this is a problem with 50mm lens as well. I think the CV40/1.4 will be my first and main M mount lens. But I'm undecided yet about the SC/MC variant
Agree! and Well said! Longer range lens seems to be the only reasonable thing leftlike you said, it will be only good for those "fun" / "art" photos
as a everyday-user who only do snaps, I think the 28mm and 50mm have already covered all that I need
too bad it seems we won't be seeing the APSC zoom lens anytime soon.... that is something I am looking for!
kanzlr":1pyde197 said:Tri-X":1pyde197 said:
you know how a RF works? I am sure you do
you have two windows with a parallax view that you align. Thats not possible to simulate with just the image sensor as a source, you'd need a second window at least.
My proposal, within the limitations of the GXR modular concept,
is to replace the VF-2 EVF with a optical rangefinder ( i.e. two windows like a Leica M or Ricoh 500GX) but with a couple of changes:
The parallax mirror movement is servo coupled to the lens cam rather than through a pure mechanical linkage.
The bright lines are displayed as the X100 i.e. a direct evolution of the Ricoh GR1 viewfinder.
There would also be a live-view mode for video and SLR lenses using it as per the X100 live-view.
The down side is that it will cost x3 on the VF-2.
Ricoh has previously used all the building blocks in their cameras - now they just need to put it all together
I've suggested this a few times, but no one seems to follow the concept - so I'm probably deranged :?
E is rotated in sympathy with the lens focus cam - via a servo motor in the electronically coupled optical rangefinder .
C is a LCD projecting framelines or a image for when live view is needed.
http://photozone.de/slr-vs-rangefinder
Has adjusting the aperture on an M mount lens to get the correct exposure been discussed? If manual focus is either done through the EVF or using the screen it seems to me it will be necessary to focus with the lens wide open and then stop down to the correct exposure otherwise with small apertures the screen and/or viewfinder will be impossibly dark to focus properly unless Ricoh have a trick up their sleeves.
Has there been any kind of idea on what the price of this M module is going to be? I understand they are implementing something a little more complicated with the shutter and all that, but I feel like they are charging $600 for a module that comes with a lens built in, so will the M module cost considerably less than that since its going to be just a sensor?
Tom Caldwell
New Member
Phase detect on the sensor
Seems like the next big thing happening. Fuji has the F300 and Z8000 already with phase detect on the sensor. Apparently Nikon, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic at least have some sort of phase detect thing happening.
Samsung has postponed it's NX200 some and NX20 somewhat more. We are waiting for the GXR-M which is still more or less on predicted track.
I guess we are about to get more phase detect focus soon enough.
Seems like the next big thing happening. Fuji has the F300 and Z8000 already with phase detect on the sensor. Apparently Nikon, Olympus, Sony and Panasonic at least have some sort of phase detect thing happening.
Samsung has postponed it's NX200 some and NX20 somewhat more. We are waiting for the GXR-M which is still more or less on predicted track.
I guess we are about to get more phase detect focus soon enough.
Release Date is official: September 9th.
http://www.fotointern.ch/archiv/2011/08/04/ricoh-gxr-aps-c-modul-fur-leica-m-objektive/
in German
http://www.fotointern.ch/archiv/2011/08/04/ricoh-gxr-aps-c-modul-fur-leica-m-objektive/
in German
Tom Caldwell
New Member
Don't get over-excited just yet
No phase detect but maybe the contrast detect focus assist is good enough for the purpose as manual focus requires lens movement anyway.
As far as i know the leaked news is that an announcement will be made on 9th September. This is not the expected availability date -add 6-8 weeks before they are in the shops (longer in many places).
Price is still to be announced.
No phase detect but maybe the contrast detect focus assist is good enough for the purpose as manual focus requires lens movement anyway.
As far as i know the leaked news is that an announcement will be made on 9th September. This is not the expected availability date -add 6-8 weeks before they are in the shops (longer in many places).
Price is still to be announced.
Tom Caldwell
New Member
Not a "universal" M mount?
Disappointed that "all" M mount lenses might not fit as there is some sort of "dip stick" device to pre-measure lenses to see if they will mount properly.
Disappointed that "all" M mount lenses might not fit as there is some sort of "dip stick" device to pre-measure lenses to see if they will mount properly.