GXR A12/S10 - long term test

[odklizec]

Great news folks! Just today I got (quite unexpectedly) another GXR sample with both A12 and S10 for long term test. So this time I hope to test GXR more thoroughly, mainly compare the S10 with GRDIII and eventually GX100/200. Feel free to let me know if you want me to test something specific or not yet covered by other tests and previews.
---
On a joelypolly's request, here are some photos of A12 with extended lens and hood. The A12 lens only extends for focus distances under 30cm. In other words, for Macro photography. It starts extending at 30cm distance and it's fully extended at 7cm distance. So if you are not interested in Macro, lens extension is not a problem for you.

 

[rui fernandes]

That's great knews, Pavel!

I'm very curious about a comparation between S10 and Gx200. Altough having no plans for this expensive move, some reports about a better processing file gave me some itch on my ear ;-)

 

[Klaatu]

Hello Pavel,

i had the chance allready to play a bit with a GXR in combination with the 50mm. It is very breathtalking to see what this still very small camera can do. But there is a big "but".
I had a lot of problems with the autofocus, paticularly in macro-modus. I was told later that this is ( was ? ) a problem of the firmware. Can you see any problems of the autofocus ?
Speed, to find the "point", a.s.o......?

Thanks for getting deep again.......

Markus

 

[andrewteee]

I'll be very curious too about focus with the S10, which seems to be the most widely discussed shortcoming of the S12. And against the GX200. If it proves at least as interesting as the GX200 then it may interest me. Thanks for your efforts.

 

[Muddy]

Great news! looking forward to the test.

 

[barjohn]

Any word when Ricoh will address any of the issues identified to date?

 

[odklizec]

Any word when Ricoh will address any of the issues identified to date?

I asked about any news regarding the FW, but there are no news yet. But I would expect a new GXR FW to be released sometime later this month or early in February. It usually takes around two months from the product announcement to first FW with fixes. But I would not expect any dramatic changes in A12 AF speed.

 

[odklizec]

I'll be very curious too about focus with the S10, which seems to be the most widely discussed shortcoming of the S12. And against the GX200. If it proves at least as interesting as the GX200 then it may interest me. Thanks for your efforts.

Yes, I will compare the S10 with GX100/200. The first thing I noticed is that S10 lens is slightly larger. The reason is the same as in case of GRDIII...a bit larger sensor. Therefore, it's not possible to use GX100/200 HA-2 hood and adapter and self-retaining lens cap LC-1. Fortunately, the lenses DW-6 and TC-1 still works with S10 and without visible vignetting (unlike GT-1 with GRDIII).

BTW, the speed of S10 AF seems to be as fast as the speed of GRDIII AF. In other words, it's very fast. Nothing like A12 AF speed.

 

[odklizec]

Hello Pavel,

i had the chance allready to play a bit with a GXR in combination with the 50mm. It is very breathtalking to see what this still very small camera can do. But there is a big "but".
I had a lot of problems with the autofocus, paticularly in macro-modus. I was told later that this is ( was ? ) a problem of the firmware. Can you see any problems of the autofocus ?
Speed, to find the "point", a.s.o......?

Thanks for getting deep again.......

Markus

Yes Markus, the A12 AF speed and reliability is unfortunately a problem. At least in medium/low contrast scenes. A12 also tends to hunt for focus. All this makes the A12 ideal only for still-life scenes.

Part of the AF speed problem is caused by Macro construction of the A12 lens. And there is also missing a crucial feature available in most Macro lenses - a focus limiter switch. I hope Ricoh will add something like that in any future FW.

 

[barjohn]

Pavel,

Since you communicate with Ricoh I have put together a list of the issues I have identified to date. You or other users may know of others that I have not yet encountered and they could be added to this list. I realize that there may be limits to what Ricoh can do to fix the auto focus speed but some improvement should be possible just by improving the algorithm since it is in the acceptable range in bright daylight. Below is my list.

My list of issues with the GXR/A12:

Auto Focus Issues:
1. Slow spot mode auto focus in normal room light level, reaches acceptable though not GF1 speeds as light level increases (avg. full press AF speed =1.08sec) (GF1 avg. full press AF speed =0.36sec with 20mm f1.7 lens, average speed with 14mm-45mm zoom at 14mm is 0.23sec))
2. Multi-autofocus is so slow it is almost unusable except for still life (Avg. focus speed 1.39sec)
3. Image in the EVF & LCD freezes during AF then jumps to a new position when focus is achieved
4. Low light level for focus assist light to come on is set too low resulting in inability to lock focus in conditions that are brighter than conditions in which the light turns on and auto focus is achieved

Manual Focus Issues:
1. Center magnify is insufficient and needs to be either made adjustable and set in a menu (like one button playback magnify) or have two steps 5X and 10X
2. Focus ring response is jumpy and moves in click steps rather than in a smooth continuous motion and the lens response lags the physical change causing focus to be missed as one overshoots the focus point and then on return undershoots the focus point
3. In full manual mode the image brightness on the LCD or EVF varies with the exposure setting making manual focus in low light difficult; this may be by design to show the user what the exposure looks like but there needs to be a simple override during manual focusing such as when turning the focus ring it should automatically brighten the image to assist with focusing

Other Issues:
1. Screen leaves live view after shutter release for about 1.9sec. This results in a blank screen for the 2 seconds or if image review is on and set to less than 2 seconds, the image is frozen for the period of review less than the blank time
2. If reviewing an image (playback), a full press of the shutter takes it out of playback but does not fire a shot in auto focus or manual mode (the GF1 will focus and fire the shutter)
3. When auto flash mode is selected the TTL feature does not seem to function properly and images either over or under expose

 

[joelypolly]

Would you be able to post some photos of the A12. I have seen a few photos of the lens extend during focusing but want to know exactly how large does this get. Or is this just the lens hood?

 

[odklizec]

joelypolly, I just uploaded some photos of the A12 with and without extended lens and hood. Check the first post.

 

[odklizec]

Pavel,

Since you communicate with Ricoh I have put together a list of the issues I have identified to date. You or other users may know of others that I have not yet encountered and they could be added to this list. I realize that there may be limits to what Ricoh can do to fix the auto focus speed but some improvement should be possible just by improving the algorithm since it is in the acceptable range in bright daylight.

barjohn, I will forward your list to Ricoh. But don't expect much from this. Ricoh will never promise anything regarding these issues. I agree that we need faster AF and some improvements in workflow. But I don't agree with this one...

2. Focus ring response is jumpy and moves in click steps rather than in a smooth continuous motion and the lens response lags the physical change causing focus to be missed as one overshoots the focus point and then on return undershoots the focus point

Yes, the MF ring responds with small clicks or rather "steps". But I think it helps to "feel" the focus. I never liked the focus by wire in other systems. But I really like the Ricoh implementation with small steps. All I need now is something to make the MF faster (without the need to scroll with ring like a mad mouse). Something like "Turbo MF" mode that would make the ring response much faster and would allow us to move from 7cm to Infinity with just one ring scroll. This fast MF mode could be activated by pressing and holding a defined button. Your requested configurable magnification is also on my list of request. This would make the MF much easier than now.

 

[HaroldGlit]

Any word when Ricoh will address any of the issues identified to date?

I asked about any news regarding the FW, but there are no news yet. But I would expect a new GXR FW to be released sometime later this month or early in February. It usually takes around two months from the product announcement to first FW with fixes. But I would not expect any dramatic changes in A12 AF speed.

Hello
I would not expect any major changes and in any case , I don't think there is a consensus on the "so-called " issues by barjohn
Most of his points are not facts , but merely his points
I don't think Ricoh will or should take action based on the complaints of one- or a few disgruntled users
Harold

 

[barjohn]

Harold, so far you are the only user that has disagreed with my post on issues. I'm not sure where you are coming from because those issues are very real and for the most part can be fixed in firmware. The fact that you disagree with nothing to back up your position leaves me feeling like you are a fan unable to honestly accept that a product you have purchased is not perfect. I believe that Ricoh will recognize the majority of these issues as real issues and fix them.

 

[joelypolly]

joelypolly, I just uploaded some photos of the A12 with and without extended lens and hood. Check the first post.

Thanks for the photos. It all makes sense now. Here is hoping for GRDIII module for the GXR.

 

[Klaatu]

Hello Pavel,

i had the chance allready to play a bit with a GXR in combination with the 50mm. It is very breathtaking to see what this still very small camera can do. But there is a big "but".
I had a lot of problems with the autofocus, paticularly in macro-modus. I was told later that this is ( was ? ) a problem of the firmware. Can you see any problems of the autofocus ?
Speed, to find the "point", a.s.o......?

Thanks for getting deep again.......

Markus

Yes Markus, the A12 AF speed and reliability is unfortunately a problem. At least in medium/low contrast scenes. A12 also tends to hunt for focus. All this makes the A12 ideal only for still-life scenes.

Part of the AF speed problem is caused by Macro construction of the A12 lens. And there is also missing a crucial feature available in most Macro lenses - a focus limiter switch. I hope Ricoh will add something like that in any future FW.

 

[odklizec]

Markus, the truth is that A12 AF is currently very slow and not very reliable under difficult lightning. I have GXR with both modules for about four days and I already experienced several more or less serious problems. So I'm sure, Ricoh will soon release an improved FW and we all can hope for improved A12 AF. I have no doubt Ricoh will improve the GXR with new FW. I'm not blaming them for slow AF and other problems, because GXR is whole new system so I don't mind some child illnesses.

 

[sagar]

Pavel, any quick feedback about S10? Would be great if you could share your quick observations

Thanks

 

[Klaatu]

Markus, the truth is that A12 AF is currently very slow and not very reliable under difficult lightning. I have GXR with both modules for about four days and I already experienced several more or less serious problems. So I'm sure, Ricoh will soon release an improved FW and we all can hope for improved A12 AF. I have no doubt Ricoh will improve the GXR with new FW. I'm not blaming them for slow AF and other problems, because GXR is whole new system so I don't mind some child illnesses.

thank`s Pavel for all the answers. You are correctly with the "child illness". It`s no problem for me too because there is nothing on the market like this system anyway. So, in a way it`s excitingly to see what ricoh will do with this problem and how they will solve it ( and they will....).

but i`am still in the "what will be my next camera" thing..... ( grd3 or gxr ? )

i got today a gxr with 50mm for a "long term test" ( about 3 weeks ). So, you will see some pictures soon of Frankfurt in wintertime and surely my son...

Markus