Duane Pandorf
Member
This sucks.
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- Thread starter wok64
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wok64
New Member
Having experienced a number of company mergers myself I can understand that the aquisition of Pentax causes some friction and may lead to some prolongated period of searching for new orientation. It's not new to me that in the end it is the company which was bought that's profiting most and determines the long term strategy. So the future may belong to Pentax cameras and Ricoh cameras may slowly disappear. Let's hope that I'm wrong.
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Tom Caldwell
New Member
It seems a futile decision. Ricoh hands their product future to a failing Pentax who they bought to resurrect the camera division because they think Pentax has a greater market base. Pentax admires the skill that went into the GXR and GRD and then does it's best to become a laughing stock of the industry by producing the Q and the K-01? Then goes the whole hog with new dslr gear when the future of the dslr concept must be uncertain at best. What next? Buy the new Hassleblad rights?
With due respect to Pentax, they are a well known and appreciated brand, but it does seem like Ricoh dad got tired of driving so he handed the keys to the Pentax kids to finish the journey while he had a snooze in tha back seat. Pentax might have better market recognition and bigger penetration, but they had their own set of problems and Hoya was probably glad to be relieved of the division.
Ricoh might have become more and more rare in Australian shops but Pentax has all but disappeared as well. I don't know what might be happening to the Pentax visibility in the rest of the world.
If Ricoh could have hit Photokina with at least one "oh wow" product then we little Ricoh acolytes might have spread the word quick enough as well as every photo-journalist, blogger and photographic interest site. Huge, almost free, publicity. Sites such as dpreview no longer include Ricoh products in their list of "enthusiast cameras". If the GRD and GXR are not enthusiast cameras then they must be "too quirky to be mentioned" ones. Nor are they being reviewed. Simple - they have been written off as a serious player in the market.
But occasionally the Ricoh product will get a mention as one that has a to-die-for feature when another camera is the subject in hand. But respect alone does not bring sales.
I don't think Ricoh needs to dominate the market but it does need to sell enough product to make their cameras worth producing and improving. I think that the A12 mount was inspired and hope that just at the point where their ideas might be on the cusp of being accepted that they lose heart. Right now, if they produce just one new module a year and each one of their present GXR owners buys one then there may be room to sell enough product as long as a small flow of new adopters is maintained.
Being "tight lipped" is one thing, not producing a detailed road map another, but "no news" at all leads to an anticipation that when dashed leads to a rush for the lifeboats. Not a good look.
There were some vague announcements earlier about "new product" from Ricoh. Some talk about a new smaller replaceable lensed camera, some talk about Pentax concentrating on dslr and Ricoh on "compact cameras". I suggest that if there are deeper forces at play then those at the booth may just not know (especially those at Pentax who were "fascinated" by the clever GXR) and also those that might know something were not about to give away trade secrets. Imagine the kids at Pentax not even being fully up to date on what their boss had been making? At least the Ricoh booth achieved something ... :ugeek:
However I share the despair - this forever optimist is losing a lot of his "optim".
Tom
With due respect to Pentax, they are a well known and appreciated brand, but it does seem like Ricoh dad got tired of driving so he handed the keys to the Pentax kids to finish the journey while he had a snooze in tha back seat. Pentax might have better market recognition and bigger penetration, but they had their own set of problems and Hoya was probably glad to be relieved of the division.
Ricoh might have become more and more rare in Australian shops but Pentax has all but disappeared as well. I don't know what might be happening to the Pentax visibility in the rest of the world.
If Ricoh could have hit Photokina with at least one "oh wow" product then we little Ricoh acolytes might have spread the word quick enough as well as every photo-journalist, blogger and photographic interest site. Huge, almost free, publicity. Sites such as dpreview no longer include Ricoh products in their list of "enthusiast cameras". If the GRD and GXR are not enthusiast cameras then they must be "too quirky to be mentioned" ones. Nor are they being reviewed. Simple - they have been written off as a serious player in the market.
But occasionally the Ricoh product will get a mention as one that has a to-die-for feature when another camera is the subject in hand. But respect alone does not bring sales.
I don't think Ricoh needs to dominate the market but it does need to sell enough product to make their cameras worth producing and improving. I think that the A12 mount was inspired and hope that just at the point where their ideas might be on the cusp of being accepted that they lose heart. Right now, if they produce just one new module a year and each one of their present GXR owners buys one then there may be room to sell enough product as long as a small flow of new adopters is maintained.
Being "tight lipped" is one thing, not producing a detailed road map another, but "no news" at all leads to an anticipation that when dashed leads to a rush for the lifeboats. Not a good look.
There were some vague announcements earlier about "new product" from Ricoh. Some talk about a new smaller replaceable lensed camera, some talk about Pentax concentrating on dslr and Ricoh on "compact cameras". I suggest that if there are deeper forces at play then those at the booth may just not know (especially those at Pentax who were "fascinated" by the clever GXR) and also those that might know something were not about to give away trade secrets. Imagine the kids at Pentax not even being fully up to date on what their boss had been making? At least the Ricoh booth achieved something ... :ugeek:
However I share the despair - this forever optimist is losing a lot of his "optim".
Tom
I've not been following this thread very closely (or any: I'm on vacation with limited Internet access), but it seems to me that it's a bit quick to count Ricoh out because they didn't announce anything at Photokina.
When you are a small player you'll be totally buried if you announce something at a major event like that. I prefer to trust that there will be another announcement re the GXR at the 2 year anniversary mark, which is October/November, no?
That seems more consistent with how Ricoh does things.
Maybe people are thinking the Pentax merger will change how Ricoh operates... when in fact, it doesn't.
When you are a small player you'll be totally buried if you announce something at a major event like that. I prefer to trust that there will be another announcement re the GXR at the 2 year anniversary mark, which is October/November, no?
That seems more consistent with how Ricoh does things.
Maybe people are thinking the Pentax merger will change how Ricoh operates... when in fact, it doesn't.
andrewteee
New Member
Group hug?
Tom Caldwell
New Member
Being realistic, I mentioned this before. Ricoh probably only saw Photokina as a place to show off it's current wares. It never had any plans to make it the launch pad for any new initiative and therefore must be quite bemused by all the angst and hand-wringing.
I am not alone "in wondering" but have possibly been one of th most articulate about it.
"Sniff" .. thanks for the hug Andrew ... (grin)
Now lets just get sensible, "have a cup of tea" and get on with the knitting.
Whenever the Ricoh company are ready they will give us a ring ... Meanwhile I am truly happy with what I already have. A poll on dpreveiew about what might happen when and if Ricoh abandoned camera production resulted in finding that "everybody" would just buy up a few spares and keep on enjoying the Ricoh gear they already had. Now that is the stuff of fanatics, let's stay fanatical ...
Tom
I am not alone "in wondering" but have possibly been one of th most articulate about it.
"Sniff" .. thanks for the hug Andrew ... (grin)
Now lets just get sensible, "have a cup of tea" and get on with the knitting.
Whenever the Ricoh company are ready they will give us a ring ... Meanwhile I am truly happy with what I already have. A poll on dpreveiew about what might happen when and if Ricoh abandoned camera production resulted in finding that "everybody" would just buy up a few spares and keep on enjoying the Ricoh gear they already had. Now that is the stuff of fanatics, let's stay fanatical ...
Tom
adanac
New Member
My solution for what-is-Ricoh-doing angst is to completely avoid thinking about it, avoid visiting forums like this one, and just use the gear I have and be happy and that's exactly what I've done over the past eight months or so.
Unfortunately for my simple avoidance plan, I couldn't help but remember Photokina was on so I have been peeking and am sad to learn of Ricoh's continued silence.
While I still firmly believe Ricoh is the only camera maker on the planet with the right stuff to produce a full frame M mount digital camera, other than Leica of course, I wonder if they have the moxy to do it?
In my wildest dreams, Ricoh-Pentax takes on the challenge, after figuring they'd have a pretty hard time making a run at Nikon, Canon, and even Sony in the high end DSLR space which is typified by full frame sensors.
But... Ricoh could take on Leica, at least in spirit, by becoming the new equivalent of the Minolta CLE except one better... not beholding to Leica at all.
There are still plenty of M lens owners shooting film, or shooting nothing with their M lenses, or using them on Sony / Ricoh GXR / other camera systems as a stop gap. These photographers offer some market opportunity for Ricoh to go after. Ricoh has already done it once via the Mount A12 and could do it again and make a statement and some money.
As for me, the GXR has become the only camera I use, but I am considering an auto-focus camera to round out my currently all-manual focus bag. More accurately, I want an autofocus solution to carry on its own so I don't need to carry a bag, nor eyeglasses, nor much of anything else.
Last year I'd have looked only at Ricoh, probably a lensor module, but this year I'm likely to broaden my search a little.
If Ricoh would only speak up about their future plans, provided there is indeed a future, chances are I wouldn't look afield at all.
That said I could always do what Don suggests and load up on cameras now while they still exist, although I much prefer the scenario where Ricoh comes out of hiding and lets us know that yes, Virginia, they'll be producing the cameras we know and love and better still for a goodly long time.
Unfortunately for my simple avoidance plan, I couldn't help but remember Photokina was on so I have been peeking and am sad to learn of Ricoh's continued silence.
While I still firmly believe Ricoh is the only camera maker on the planet with the right stuff to produce a full frame M mount digital camera, other than Leica of course, I wonder if they have the moxy to do it?
In my wildest dreams, Ricoh-Pentax takes on the challenge, after figuring they'd have a pretty hard time making a run at Nikon, Canon, and even Sony in the high end DSLR space which is typified by full frame sensors.
But... Ricoh could take on Leica, at least in spirit, by becoming the new equivalent of the Minolta CLE except one better... not beholding to Leica at all.
There are still plenty of M lens owners shooting film, or shooting nothing with their M lenses, or using them on Sony / Ricoh GXR / other camera systems as a stop gap. These photographers offer some market opportunity for Ricoh to go after. Ricoh has already done it once via the Mount A12 and could do it again and make a statement and some money.
As for me, the GXR has become the only camera I use, but I am considering an auto-focus camera to round out my currently all-manual focus bag. More accurately, I want an autofocus solution to carry on its own so I don't need to carry a bag, nor eyeglasses, nor much of anything else.
Last year I'd have looked only at Ricoh, probably a lensor module, but this year I'm likely to broaden my search a little.
If Ricoh would only speak up about their future plans, provided there is indeed a future, chances are I wouldn't look afield at all.
That said I could always do what Don suggests and load up on cameras now while they still exist, although I much prefer the scenario where Ricoh comes out of hiding and lets us know that yes, Virginia, they'll be producing the cameras we know and love and better still for a goodly long time.
streetshooter
New Member
I've read every post on every thread on every forum in the known universe.
It's easy to compile a list of what every user wants from Ricoh.
I have only one question to add....
"What does Ricoh want"?
It's easy to compile a list of what every user wants from Ricoh.
I have only one question to add....
"What does Ricoh want"?
CHICHORNIO
New Member
Well, I´ve waited for so long for a new GRD xxx with a fixed 40-50mm range lens and a bigger sensor. I´ll be another one of the long list of back ordering customers waiting for a brand new Sigma DP2m. Sorry Ricoh... I´m leaving you for good.
adanac
New Member
streetshooter":1389axt1 said:
That's a great thought.
Realize a profit from their Pentax investment is probably at the forefront of their minds (and why I am a little concerned over the silence from the Ricoh arm). Integration of the two companies - to whatever extent is their plan - to be complete.
Ultimately profitability. Market attention resulting in increased sales and recognition.
Aside from the internal integration aspect of this, what market segment is hot? Compacts. Even advanced compacts.
So there's hope, but let's hope their view of compacts isn't completely K mount centric. The Pentax K-01 takes away hope.
thelps
Active Member
streetshooter":1fyfra2t said:
Hmm, tough question. Probably profits more than sales. Its their "raison d'etre "
I do somehow get a sneaking suspicion that the camera side exists because of some high enthusiasm for their products.
Their items are so niche but well designed that I feel there is someone there with a passion.
I hope to see a GRD V. A GXR II would be nice!
streetshooter
New Member
thelps":1m81v52h said:
Tim, I in part agree. I really don't believe that money is the most important driving force. Of course they have to show a profit but that's not why they employ who they employ. Engineers with an esthetic soul. I want to believe that they really love the product they are turning out.
I do believe that a GRD5 is in the near future, without it...Ricoh will be gone. The GXR11, I think that's wishful thinking. It makes sense to me that more Lensors would show more interest in a new body. They never addressed another prime like the 35mm so many wanted. So, the saving grace for the GXR line would be the long awaited FF M module.
I think a part of the real problem is improving upon perfection. What I mean is, the Ricoh's are soooo close to being perfect that for me, they are perfect. So, how do you improve upon that? I'd hate to be a Ricoh engineer working on the GRD or GXR line.
Ok guys....how do we change the strap lugs?
Blow-in
Active Member
May be we should ask ourselves why Ricoh bought Pentax? Presumably to stay in the camera business. Possibly for market penetration? Ricoh to do 'high-end' niche and Pentax to do mass market? Personally I wouldn't rule out more GXR development - it's a unique niche project. So a few more lensors (35 or 40mm, 75 or 85mm) the FF M module and maybe even a B&W only sensor together with some subtle improvements to the body (new screen?) would have everyone talking again about Ricoh...then the GRD5. It would help though if Ricoh would tells us a bit more about what's in the pipeline....I for one are not going to buy a GXR unless I know there is more coming.
Richard
Richard
thelps
Active Member
streetshooter":syowiyfr said:
I do very much agree, this is probably better said than I put it, I do also believe they have a core group of Engineers who love their work and products.
You only have to read these articles --
http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/gr/gr_digital/story/01.html
http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/gr/gr_digital2/story/01/index.html
to see how enthusiastic they are about what they contributed to.
As suggested in the past by others I think Ricoh would do well to expand the GRD line with 28mm AND 40mm AND 50mm versions. Why not throw in a dedicated 21mm as well.
With the price Sony are asking for the FF RX1 I think there is a market for high end single lenses attached to sensors.
adanac
New Member
Sure, the issue for Ricoh won't all be about profit, but somewhere at the root of all business decisions the question will be asked - are we getting a return on our investment in this area?
Ricoh is a far bigger name in the home country and in parts of Asia than in North America, and their penetration in Europe is spotty. I'd agree they have a very unique esthetic perspective on design and it seems this has been appreciated particularly in their home market. But tastes can change so Ricoh like any company must continually self-assess.
As for where they as a company might go, Ricoh / Pentax is probably looking at where the prevailing Japanese consumer demand is today (or will be 1, 2 years out) in Japan. One common theme: Small.
Maybe related - I read an article (link below) where Fujifilm's X camera designer was asked about full frame cameras from that company; he briefly commented on the Sony RX1; he likes it but the design is too modern - I take that to read "too modern for my company, not for me". Size is also discussed in the article - Japanese consumers prefer the smaller compact system cameras, but a balance has to be struck so that cameras appeal to the home and export markets.
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/ph ... era-sensor
Ricoh is a far bigger name in the home country and in parts of Asia than in North America, and their penetration in Europe is spotty. I'd agree they have a very unique esthetic perspective on design and it seems this has been appreciated particularly in their home market. But tastes can change so Ricoh like any company must continually self-assess.
As for where they as a company might go, Ricoh / Pentax is probably looking at where the prevailing Japanese consumer demand is today (or will be 1, 2 years out) in Japan. One common theme: Small.
Maybe related - I read an article (link below) where Fujifilm's X camera designer was asked about full frame cameras from that company; he briefly commented on the Sony RX1; he likes it but the design is too modern - I take that to read "too modern for my company, not for me". Size is also discussed in the article - Japanese consumers prefer the smaller compact system cameras, but a balance has to be struck so that cameras appeal to the home and export markets.
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/ph ... era-sensor
andrewteee
New Member
I think we have to separate how Ricoh did camera business before and after the acquisition of Pentax. We can't base what they'll do now based on what they did before. With Pentax they are a larger and more global camera company. My guess is that the desire to be profitable on a larger scale will be more important than before.
I don't know if Ricoh will still focus the Ricoh branded cameras on the Japanese market.
I never thought about this before but what if Ricoh (the global copier company) wants to sell off the camera division?
I don't know if Ricoh will still focus the Ricoh branded cameras on the Japanese market.
I never thought about this before but what if Ricoh (the global copier company) wants to sell off the camera division?
Wouter
New Member
In essence Ricoh has the desire to be a more global camera manufacturer, but with the acquisition of Pentax they might mostly restrengthen their domestic position.
Ricoh took a chance and risk with the GXR, and with exception of the M-mount module, just didn't work out that well commercially. The lenses are not bad, in fact they are really good (although the AF on the 33mm is still rather slow), and what Ricoh is able to pull out of the A12 and A16 sensors is stunning considering their limited resources (financially and probably number of engineers too). Maybe there is a future for a camera body with a Ricoh property lens mount and an APS-C sized sensor without AA-filter. Instead of developing lensors they give their A-series lenses their newly developed lens mount (read not similar to the Pentax K-mount). Additionally Ricoh developes a M-mount adapter which equals the added bulk on the M-mount module. It could be a camera to compete with the current interchangeable camera systems from Fuji.
Regarding the GRD series I don't think there is no doubt about it's future. It will last as long as Pentax Ricoh will last.
My impression from Photokina was that Pentax Ricoh wants to be taken serious by photographers. They really want to be associated with professional or high end, top class photography. Even if people by a Nikon D3200 they know it is the same brand many professionals use. Is that the same with Pentax Ricoh? Just wonder how many professional photographers use Pentax cameras? Therefore Pentax Germany worked with some photographers on an exhibition on the booth, both for visitors and vendors, and on a couple of photobooks focusing on several of their camera systems.
Ricoh took a chance and risk with the GXR, and with exception of the M-mount module, just didn't work out that well commercially. The lenses are not bad, in fact they are really good (although the AF on the 33mm is still rather slow), and what Ricoh is able to pull out of the A12 and A16 sensors is stunning considering their limited resources (financially and probably number of engineers too). Maybe there is a future for a camera body with a Ricoh property lens mount and an APS-C sized sensor without AA-filter. Instead of developing lensors they give their A-series lenses their newly developed lens mount (read not similar to the Pentax K-mount). Additionally Ricoh developes a M-mount adapter which equals the added bulk on the M-mount module. It could be a camera to compete with the current interchangeable camera systems from Fuji.
Regarding the GRD series I don't think there is no doubt about it's future. It will last as long as Pentax Ricoh will last.
My impression from Photokina was that Pentax Ricoh wants to be taken serious by photographers. They really want to be associated with professional or high end, top class photography. Even if people by a Nikon D3200 they know it is the same brand many professionals use. Is that the same with Pentax Ricoh? Just wonder how many professional photographers use Pentax cameras? Therefore Pentax Germany worked with some photographers on an exhibition on the booth, both for visitors and vendors, and on a couple of photobooks focusing on several of their camera systems.
andrewteee
New Member
Wouter":17b4bu2p said:
That would make the most sense. Essentially, separate the current A12/16 lensors into a standard camera body and lenses, expand the range of available lenses, and offer the M-mount and a K-mount adapters. That would make a lot of people happy and make more sense in the marketplace.
andrewteee
New Member
Wouter, I know you are busy (I can relate) but I miss your blog posts. The mix of photographs and words are always compelling. I'm trying to make an effort on my own blog. As you I think know, I had given up very recently, but that spurred me into action again. Your own efforts are an inspiration.