There are many things to really like about the GXR; however, for me, after comparing it to the Sony NEX 5 I have concluded that the NEX 5 better fits my needs. IQ up to about 3200 is very close with the NEX 5 being slightly better. The lens on the A12 is far better quality than either kit lens on the NEX 5 but the ability to use Leica and other lenses gives the NEX 5 the edge. I think Ricoh missed the boat in not offering an interchangeable lens module. I also think that going small sensors in the GXR was another mistake. Why carry a larger camera unless you are getting a bigger sensor? I also felt Ricoh was slow to address issues that were important to me with firmware updates. I realize that they were more focused on their primary market users and clearly I'm not in that category. It is still the best UI of any camera I have tried and owned and the list is long. The LCD is very good but not up to the Sony's. The Sony isn't perfect by any means and there are tweaks that could be made to improve the UI significantly. Whether Sony will do so is another question. When it comes to JPG features the Sony beats anything on the market. The handheld low light mode shoots high ISO images (6400) so clean that they look like ISO 200. The panorama modes give you a truly magnificent wide angle shot that would take considerable time in PP and does it in seconds. The fast shoot mode at 7fps and the fast AF make a significant difference for me. The MF is definitely easier on the NEX 5. Anyway, feel free to ask questions and if you are interested the items are for sale on Amazon.com.
GR User Forum
The spot for all Ricoh GR camera users
Register for free, meet other Ricoh GR users, share your images, help others, have fun!
Tell your friends about us!Selling my GXR Kit
- Thread starter barjohn
- Start date
andrewteee
New Member
Barjohn, There is a lot to choose from in this category these days. I agree that the small sensor GXR units don't make sense. Why they could not make the CX3 what the P10 is is beyond me. And I won't be switching out the A12s and P10s. I just bought a NOS GX100 and I'm reminded how small it is compared to the GXR. I think Ricoh should keep the serious compacts compact and make the GXR line the GXR/A12 line exclusively, with an APS-C sensor at its core. The GXR/A12 is an amazing camera, the only problem being there is only one focal length available.
I've heard mixed things about the NEX cameras, the lenses being the biggest let down. I'm not convinced enough to try one yet, though I find the panorama feature very compelling. And I'm just not sure how serious Sony is about being a serious camera company. If they created the "A900" of the NEX line with some high quality (Zeiss!) optics then I would take notice immediately.
I have also returned to shooting with the Sigma DP1s and DP2 again. Except for my Ricoh GRD3 (and new GX100 "sketchbook") I'm more interested in larger sensor compacts than small sensor compacts these days.
I hope the GXR line remains viable, but until more (A12) units appear I'm just not sure what the long-term success will be. Nonetheless, I love my GXR/A12.
Thanks for your post.
I've heard mixed things about the NEX cameras, the lenses being the biggest let down. I'm not convinced enough to try one yet, though I find the panorama feature very compelling. And I'm just not sure how serious Sony is about being a serious camera company. If they created the "A900" of the NEX line with some high quality (Zeiss!) optics then I would take notice immediately.
I have also returned to shooting with the Sigma DP1s and DP2 again. Except for my Ricoh GRD3 (and new GX100 "sketchbook") I'm more interested in larger sensor compacts than small sensor compacts these days.
I hope the GXR line remains viable, but until more (A12) units appear I'm just not sure what the long-term success will be. Nonetheless, I love my GXR/A12.
Thanks for your post.
Andrew,
Lenses in one form or another seems to be the stickler for mirror-less APS-C cameras. To some degree this is to be expected given the newness of the market and entrants. I am concerned that a small company like Ricoh Camera can't afford to wait and allow the big dogs in the kennel. With both Canon and Nikon rumored to have entrants in the wings waiting and Sony with a NEX 7 (rumored) it will be hard to stay in the game without having something very unique to offer. There will be new lens offerings and rather quickly I think. If and when Ricoh offers the 28mm lens will it have the higher performance sensor that the NEX has or will they use the same sensor used in the 50mm A12? If they use the old sensor, high speed AF won't be happening nor will higher ISO performance. To me the ideal would have been a 3 piece camera: The back, the sensor module and the lens. New and better sensor, replace the sensor module, new and better LCD or back with built in EVF replace the back, etc. New module with FF, new lens line up. Continuous upgrade path and the ability to open new markets for the camera. They could still do it but I think it would take a mindset change at Ricoh that does not seem to be forthcoming. It is too bad. The camera is hardly mentioned in the media and when small APS-C cameras are compared it is left out completely. The NEX in its entry into the market in June (only available in Japan) shot to number 2 in sales and in July it may have reached number 1. Do you think Sony is going to ignore that new market for lenses and let someone else take it? I don't. The following are just my guesses but I think you will see new lenses for the NEX announced by September, possibly the NEX 7 and I think and EVF for the NEX and a flash hot-soe accessory.
Lenses in one form or another seems to be the stickler for mirror-less APS-C cameras. To some degree this is to be expected given the newness of the market and entrants. I am concerned that a small company like Ricoh Camera can't afford to wait and allow the big dogs in the kennel. With both Canon and Nikon rumored to have entrants in the wings waiting and Sony with a NEX 7 (rumored) it will be hard to stay in the game without having something very unique to offer. There will be new lens offerings and rather quickly I think. If and when Ricoh offers the 28mm lens will it have the higher performance sensor that the NEX has or will they use the same sensor used in the 50mm A12? If they use the old sensor, high speed AF won't be happening nor will higher ISO performance. To me the ideal would have been a 3 piece camera: The back, the sensor module and the lens. New and better sensor, replace the sensor module, new and better LCD or back with built in EVF replace the back, etc. New module with FF, new lens line up. Continuous upgrade path and the ability to open new markets for the camera. They could still do it but I think it would take a mindset change at Ricoh that does not seem to be forthcoming. It is too bad. The camera is hardly mentioned in the media and when small APS-C cameras are compared it is left out completely. The NEX in its entry into the market in June (only available in Japan) shot to number 2 in sales and in July it may have reached number 1. Do you think Sony is going to ignore that new market for lenses and let someone else take it? I don't. The following are just my guesses but I think you will see new lenses for the NEX announced by September, possibly the NEX 7 and I think and EVF for the NEX and a flash hot-soe accessory.
odklizec
PK
John, I'm sorry to hear about your departure from the GXR system. I guess your purchase was probably too impulsive and with too high expectations? I read about your FW complaints, but I'm afraid, you are out of luck with many of them, because they are either not easy to do, if doable at all?
For example, the reason of LCD freeze in QK-AF is that this is how the quick AF works and how Ricoh engineers managed to make the A12 AF a little bit faster. The LCD freeze simply helps with AF speed (don't ask me how
). Many people complained about the same LCD freeze in GRDII. So Ricoh engineers "fixed" it in GRDIII. The sad thing is that the GRDIII AF now works in exactly the same way as A12 in slow AF mode. In other words, what they did was disabling the noticeably quicker AF with LCD freeze to please the people who complained about the LCD freeze. Fortunately, the GRDIII with its smaller sensor is still quicker in slow mode AF than the A12. But I hate to see purposely disabled feature only to please the people who complained about the LCD freeze. For me personally, the LCD freeze was never a problem. I would rather see faster AF even at a cost of complete LCD blackout. And for example, people who frame the scene via viewfinder don't care about the LCD freeze at all.
I think you also miss few points in your assumptions. Ricoh is traditional Japanese company focused primarily on the Japanese market. Anything else is a nice bonus. They of course care about other markets, but their major markets are located in Asia. At second, they don't try to compete with major players! They always did cameras in their own way, inventing many clever things and features later incorporated in competitors' cameras. Ricoh was the first camera maker who came with fixed lens compact (at high price), which got many bad reviews for its noisy output and high price. But as you can see, the GRDI has still many loyal followers and its third generation is miles ahead of GRDI (except the B&W JPEG).
I personally don't worry about the GXR future. It will still have some followers, no matter of upcoming Canon/Nikon announcement in this area or even new Sony NEX.
I believe that at some point, there will appear the so many times asked GXR module with lens mount. It's only a question of time. Ricoh managers are not that stupid to ignore the demand for lens mount module. There will most probably appear also the full frame module, which I believe would give the GXR the sign of "unique" product? But we should be reasonable in our wishes and expectations. Ricoh photo division is simply not the same size of Canon or Nikon and therefore, we cannot expect immediate solutions and the same range of lenses other companies can do in the same time frame.
For example, the reason of LCD freeze in QK-AF is that this is how the quick AF works and how Ricoh engineers managed to make the A12 AF a little bit faster. The LCD freeze simply helps with AF speed (don't ask me how
). Many people complained about the same LCD freeze in GRDII. So Ricoh engineers "fixed" it in GRDIII. The sad thing is that the GRDIII AF now works in exactly the same way as A12 in slow AF mode. In other words, what they did was disabling the noticeably quicker AF with LCD freeze to please the people who complained about the LCD freeze. Fortunately, the GRDIII with its smaller sensor is still quicker in slow mode AF than the A12. But I hate to see purposely disabled feature only to please the people who complained about the LCD freeze. For me personally, the LCD freeze was never a problem. I would rather see faster AF even at a cost of complete LCD blackout. And for example, people who frame the scene via viewfinder don't care about the LCD freeze at all. I think you also miss few points in your assumptions. Ricoh is traditional Japanese company focused primarily on the Japanese market. Anything else is a nice bonus. They of course care about other markets, but their major markets are located in Asia. At second, they don't try to compete with major players! They always did cameras in their own way, inventing many clever things and features later incorporated in competitors' cameras. Ricoh was the first camera maker who came with fixed lens compact (at high price), which got many bad reviews for its noisy output and high price. But as you can see, the GRDI has still many loyal followers and its third generation is miles ahead of GRDI (except the B&W JPEG).
I personally don't worry about the GXR future. It will still have some followers, no matter of upcoming Canon/Nikon announcement in this area or even new Sony NEX.
I believe that at some point, there will appear the so many times asked GXR module with lens mount. It's only a question of time. Ricoh managers are not that stupid to ignore the demand for lens mount module. There will most probably appear also the full frame module, which I believe would give the GXR the sign of "unique" product? But we should be reasonable in our wishes and expectations. Ricoh photo division is simply not the same size of Canon or Nikon and therefore, we cannot expect immediate solutions and the same range of lenses other companies can do in the same time frame.
andrewteee
New Member
Yes, Ricoh has no intention of competing with Sony, Canon, Nikon. They can't nor want to. It's been said that the Ricoh camera team designs cameras for themselves (and the Japanese market), that they design cameras that they want to use.
My main concern is as a Ricoh user who loves them, and I want to see the GXR line succeed because I see so much potential in the A12s. The GXR is a new recipe and it needs to find its niche. The GRD line is comfortably settled, the GX line was too but disappeared, the CX line is settled, but the P10 unit raised the bar for it. The GXR is trying to be too many things IMO. Focus on the A12s and perhaps even an m-mount unit, which would be best of it was full frame so that the lens focal lengths were true.
My main concern is as a Ricoh user who loves them, and I want to see the GXR line succeed because I see so much potential in the A12s. The GXR is a new recipe and it needs to find its niche. The GRD line is comfortably settled, the GX line was too but disappeared, the CX line is settled, but the P10 unit raised the bar for it. The GXR is trying to be too many things IMO. Focus on the A12s and perhaps even an m-mount unit, which would be best of it was full frame so that the lens focal lengths were true.
I can't make any comments on where the GXR is going, as I don't have the experience, but I would like to say that Ricoh seems to have been very good at being ahead of its competitors design-wise. Just look at how many serious compacts from Panansonic, Samsung, etc have copied the GX line in recent years (through the LX3, TL500/EX1).
Ricoh's GXR seems to me to be in line with Thom Hogan's thoughts of how cameras need to be redesigned to be an integrated part of the image processing universe (http://www.bythom.com/design2010.htm). I don't think anyone else is moving in this direction yet. It's early days, so we don't see the full potential for this concept, but at least I can see where Ricoh is coming from. As with the GXs, Ricoh seems ahead of the curve.
Is Ricoh mudding the concept with it's small sensor modules? Maybe, but it does add flexibility to the system, and if you don't find a module appealing, then don't buy it. It's that simple. In Ricoh's terms, I guess they are trying to make the system as open as possible. Why not?
Are they really taking R&D away from developing A12 modules to concentrate on small sensor ones? IMO, not much.
I disagree that the CX line is affected by the release of the P10. They are aimed at different markets. I don't think people who buy a point and shoot camera are the ones asking for RAW. Even some of the photographers posting in these forums don't bother with RAW, so why assume that having RAW is required in every camera?
Reading the forums, it seems that the P10's lens is not as collapsable as the CX lens, so it is a slightly different camera mechanically. It may be based on the CX line, but it may not be a CX.
I do wonder how hard it would be to create a slot in modules to 'swap out' sensors or just a 'screw top' to swap out lens. I don't think it is a radical idea, so no doubt Ricoh has thought of it, too. :?
Ricoh's GXR seems to me to be in line with Thom Hogan's thoughts of how cameras need to be redesigned to be an integrated part of the image processing universe (http://www.bythom.com/design2010.htm). I don't think anyone else is moving in this direction yet. It's early days, so we don't see the full potential for this concept, but at least I can see where Ricoh is coming from. As with the GXs, Ricoh seems ahead of the curve.
Is Ricoh mudding the concept with it's small sensor modules? Maybe, but it does add flexibility to the system, and if you don't find a module appealing, then don't buy it. It's that simple. In Ricoh's terms, I guess they are trying to make the system as open as possible. Why not?
Are they really taking R&D away from developing A12 modules to concentrate on small sensor ones? IMO, not much.
I disagree that the CX line is affected by the release of the P10. They are aimed at different markets. I don't think people who buy a point and shoot camera are the ones asking for RAW. Even some of the photographers posting in these forums don't bother with RAW, so why assume that having RAW is required in every camera?
Reading the forums, it seems that the P10's lens is not as collapsable as the CX lens, so it is a slightly different camera mechanically. It may be based on the CX line, but it may not be a CX.
I do wonder how hard it would be to create a slot in modules to 'swap out' sensors or just a 'screw top' to swap out lens. I don't think it is a radical idea, so no doubt Ricoh has thought of it, too. :?
andrewteee
New Member
Thom Hogan actually thinks the Ricoh GXR is foolish (he didn't mince words in an email to me) because it is not componentized enough. Though he did applaud their willingness to go where they went. According to the rumor mill, Olympus has a component-based camera in the works (for 4/3s, not m4/3s).
Right now I have a GRD3, GX100 and GXR with A12 and P10. The GRD3 and GX100 are super compact and super easy to carry. The GXR is larger, but with the larger sensor I get far better results (technical speaking - the photographer is still who he is regardless of camera ). I enjoy using the P10, but IMO the GRD/GX (or CX) lines better fit their intended use. I don't switch between the A12 and P10 - I have two cameras. I take one or the other, depending on photographic intent, but rarely both.
I really, really want more A12s. They are, IMO,the strength of the GXR line. And frankly, all the small sensor categories are covered now (the GX, the CX, and I don't expect a GR GXR unit), so concentrate on the A12s.
Right now I have a GRD3, GX100 and GXR with A12 and P10. The GRD3 and GX100 are super compact and super easy to carry. The GXR is larger, but with the larger sensor I get far better results (technical speaking - the photographer is still who he is regardless of camera
). I enjoy using the P10, but IMO the GRD/GX (or CX) lines better fit their intended use. I don't switch between the A12 and P10 - I have two cameras. I take one or the other, depending on photographic intent, but rarely both.I really, really want more A12s. They are, IMO,the strength of the GXR line. And frankly, all the small sensor categories are covered now (the GX, the CX, and I don't expect a GR GXR unit), so concentrate on the A12s.
deejjjaaaa
New Member
the back (minus LCD and EVF), the replaceable lcd, the evf, the sensor module, the mount module and the lens... plus open source firmware.barjohn":4lwlfuti said:
I think that open source firmware would have been a really radical but great idea. It is an especially good idea for a small company because they can tap into a great deal of talent they could not otherwise afford. It would have shown daring and imagination and really shook up the traditional players.
Pavel, since I work in software and firmware and have for over 40 years I know that the suggestions I proposed are all doable in software. I hate to tell you how sloppy and inefficient software has become over the last 40 years. Back in the 70's we wrote software that could support graphics for 32 users with less than 1/2 second response time in a computer that only had 32KB of memory and ran at speeds that would be laughable today. The difference is we wrote very fast and very efficient code. Now we write slow sloppy code and when performance is lousy we throw up our hands and say it can't be done. Optimization is a thing of the past, instead we rely on More's Law to give us a faster processor to fix what our laziness has created. I worked at the Kennedy Space center where we launched rockets like the Saturn V and put men on the moon with computers that are a fraction of the speed or power of an iPhone's. Today, 40 years later we can't duplicate what we did back then.
I have read many of the threads on DPR on the Ricoh cameras and it is amazing how the same problems appear in model after model and the same complaints are frequently repeated. It seems the same excuse is also repeated, they only care about the Asian market and that it is what the Asian market wants. If that is true, then why are those of us in other markets buying their products? Shouldn't we spend our money on a company and its products that value our business?
Other discussions center on Ricoh's innovations in their cameras. I'm still not certain what those are, but let's take the MF assist on the GXR A12. Even in manual mode, where you want to select wide open for a shallow DOF, the lens stops down in bright light making the DOF so large that you can't see where the focus point is. Then add the weak magnification (something that should have been easily fixed) and even in low light you struggle to use the MF. If that weren't bad enough the focus by wire is notchy with feel-able mini detents making the focus jerky and not smooth allowing you to go past the focus in a jump and having to try and come back where it jumps to the other side of the focus point. Not one of the m43rds cameras nor the Sony NEX behave this way so we know it can be done better. From what I have seen, the Ricoh's real strength is its build quality is excellent, solid and well made and its lens quality and IQ is very close to Leica which is saying a lot as that is Leica's real strength. The way they put the ergonomics together is very good but I think it could be simplified as it seems sometimes they can't decide whether they want to be a semi-professional tool or a consumer camera. In this regards, Leica did a much better job with the X1.
Pavel, since I work in software and firmware and have for over 40 years I know that the suggestions I proposed are all doable in software. I hate to tell you how sloppy and inefficient software has become over the last 40 years. Back in the 70's we wrote software that could support graphics for 32 users with less than 1/2 second response time in a computer that only had 32KB of memory and ran at speeds that would be laughable today. The difference is we wrote very fast and very efficient code. Now we write slow sloppy code and when performance is lousy we throw up our hands and say it can't be done. Optimization is a thing of the past, instead we rely on More's Law to give us a faster processor to fix what our laziness has created. I worked at the Kennedy Space center where we launched rockets like the Saturn V and put men on the moon with computers that are a fraction of the speed or power of an iPhone's. Today, 40 years later we can't duplicate what we did back then.
I have read many of the threads on DPR on the Ricoh cameras and it is amazing how the same problems appear in model after model and the same complaints are frequently repeated. It seems the same excuse is also repeated, they only care about the Asian market and that it is what the Asian market wants. If that is true, then why are those of us in other markets buying their products? Shouldn't we spend our money on a company and its products that value our business?
Other discussions center on Ricoh's innovations in their cameras. I'm still not certain what those are, but let's take the MF assist on the GXR A12. Even in manual mode, where you want to select wide open for a shallow DOF, the lens stops down in bright light making the DOF so large that you can't see where the focus point is. Then add the weak magnification (something that should have been easily fixed) and even in low light you struggle to use the MF. If that weren't bad enough the focus by wire is notchy with feel-able mini detents making the focus jerky and not smooth allowing you to go past the focus in a jump and having to try and come back where it jumps to the other side of the focus point. Not one of the m43rds cameras nor the Sony NEX behave this way so we know it can be done better. From what I have seen, the Ricoh's real strength is its build quality is excellent, solid and well made and its lens quality and IQ is very close to Leica which is saying a lot as that is Leica's real strength. The way they put the ergonomics together is very good but I think it could be simplified as it seems sometimes they can't decide whether they want to be a semi-professional tool or a consumer camera. In this regards, Leica did a much better job with the X1.
andrewteee
New Member
Barjohn, Interesting words. Perhaps the camera companies have not realized they are in the software business. Perhaps that is why I cannot share directly from my Ricoh (or Canon or Nikon or Sony or Samsung...). Perhaps the iPhone is the most advanced camera we have today, from the perspective of how most people use them today: shoot and share. But perhaps it comes down to investments: in cameras, in lenses, in sensors, in software. What choices are the camera companies making?
Code-wise, I agree. I work for a small, custom software design/build shop as a designer, and we have a lot of "clean code" devs who often scoff at the laziness of other developers that leave sloppy or inefficient code. They trim all fat and make things fast. Clients trust us to get the job done, and we do. I love it because as a designer my stuff gets built, and it so often works beautifully. I ask "can you do this," and they say yes, we'll find a way. Good devs are amazing.
Code-wise, I agree. I work for a small, custom software design/build shop as a designer, and we have a lot of "clean code" devs who often scoff at the laziness of other developers that leave sloppy or inefficient code. They trim all fat and make things fast. Clients trust us to get the job done, and we do. I love it because as a designer my stuff gets built, and it so often works beautifully. I ask "can you do this," and they say yes, we'll find a way. Good devs are amazing.