GR User Forum

The spot for all Ricoh GR camera users

Register for free, meet other Ricoh GR users, share your images, help others, have fun!

Tell your friends about us!

Ricoh GXR or Leica X1

I did a "real world" printing test with the X1 (I ´ll be doing a GXR-A12 printing test as well very soon) based on the raw sample files from dpreview. I will like to share my conclusion with you.
1- I developed an X1 ISO 100 raw sample file in Silkypix (no post processing at all, NR in Natural) and exported a TIF 16 bits file with AdobeRGB incrusted at 300dpi.
2- I printed a cropped portion of the TIF in LR Beta 2 at 162 ppi with no interpolation (I made a crop of a suggested final print of about 57x45 cm).
Conclusion:
The is NO noticieable noise at 54x45cm size print. I did not apply any sharpening or file interpolation, so I think I can push the print easily to 82x54 cm with very good results (at 132ppi with no interpolation). I printed the file in a Epson Semigloss 250g/m2 Paper properly calibrated and profiled. I believe that if I use a Fine Art 100% base cotton paper (as Hahnemuhle or Canson or Somerset), I can get even better results. Those papers copy less noise than the RC Photo based papers.
So, I´m very glad with the results. The quality of the pictures from the X1 are superb. I´ve had many prints out of hi-end full frame sensors D-SRL Nikons and Canons and the X1 has nothing to envy them (considering it´s a pocket size camera with a fixed lens.. a Leica lens though!!!)
In a few days I´ll be testing some of the GXR-A12 raw sample pictures as well.
Guillermo, from Argentina
Equipment: HP Designjet z3200ps Photo printer 44" wide, 12 Vivera pigment inks, archival quality.
 
Just an addendum, found in a review not at all positive about the X1, but very usefull for my photo needs... (http://www.whatdigitalcamera.com/equipm ... eview.html)

Leica X1 review - Image Quality
Leica X1 review - Image Quality

The X1 produces exceptional images that are low in image noise and consistently decent throughout the ISO range. JPEG images from ISO 100-800 are very crisp and clear, with noise reduction only causing some slight softening of sharpness at the higher ISO 1600-3200. Raw DNG images retain better sharpness and although image noise is more prominent, images have a fine grain-like quality that, with the exception of the more coarse image noise at ISO 3200, lends well to prints. Compared to their JPEG counterparts, the Raw files are flatter overall, not showing full shadow and highlight potential without some post-processing. The combination of the lens and large sensor clearly pays off.
 
Guillermo,

I found four particular full-size 12 Mpixel JPG Leica X1 sample images. They are all taken at full wide-angle using fairly long shutter times (presumably with a tripod) at ISO=100 and at F=16.
I was curious as to what you think of the image quality of these particular images.

To your eyes:
How is the quality of focus?
How is the detail and clarity?
How is the color rendering?
How is the chromatic-aberration/fringing?

See:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/440 ... bd84_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2679/440 ... a841_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/440 ... aac7_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/440 ... fc4e_o.jpg

All from: http://www.neutralday.com/leica-x1-image-samples/
 
Detail Man":c9rjk2vl said:
Guillermo,

I found four particular full-size 12 Mpixel JPG Leica X1 sample images. They are all taken at full wide-angle using fairly long shutter times (presumably with a tripod) at ISO=100 and at F=16.
I was curious as to what you think of the image quality of these particular images.

To your eyes:
How is the quality of focus?
How is the detail and clarity?
How is the color rendering?
How is the chromatic-aberration/fringing?

See:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/440 ... bd84_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2679/440 ... a841_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/440 ... aac7_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/440 ... fc4e_o.jpg

All from: http://www.neutralday.com/leica-x1-image-samples/

oh, oh, pick me, pick me!!

The focus or sharpness looks off to me, not good for a camera of this value, I'd ask was there something wrong with this camera. But most most of all the CA is terrible, at the top center in the white snow area there is bad red fringing and lower to the right there is blue fringing in the snow. I'd almost suspect this camera had been dropped and the lens was out of whack?!
 
In my humble opinion, neither X1 nor A12 have significant advantage in image quality. True, X1 produces more chromatic aberration but on the other hand, noticeably shaper images (in RAW). X1 JPEG is bad as is the Leica tradition. Even M8/M9 JPEG is awful.

A12, on the other hand, produces only faint traces of chromatic aberration at f2.5/2.8 and images are slightly less sharp at pixel level. But they are sharp from corner to corner.

I think the only real advantage of X1 (for Guillermo's needs) is X1 size and maybe "cool" Leica factor ;) I personally would not trash 2k USD for just single purpose camera without the prospect of future expandability. But it's Guillermo's decision ;)
 
With a nod to my own Panasonic roots, some of the DMC-GF1 sample JPGs are nothing to "sneeze at".
See: http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ ... le_images/
taken with the 14-45 mm lens-assembly (roughly the same physical size as the A12 Module lens-assembly),
and look at (counting from left to right, and top to bottom from the top-left thumbnail) the full-size
images of #3 (a floral arrangement close-up) and #10 (a building from a distance).

Note: I tried to post the URLs, but Photography Blog has some tricky way of forbidding linking to the images externally (except for linking from the above web-page itself).

The 14-45 mm lens-assembly has lens-based Mega Optical Image Stabilization that likely easily makes up for the lesser image-quality (in that the necessary ISO Sensitivity for shooting with Shutter-Speeds that work on a hand-held basis would be reduced accordingly). The ISO=800 limit of the DMC-GF1 is (in essence) multiplied by several "stops" when using the lens-based Mega OIS. And, the Panasonic "G-series" camera Auto Focus systems are reported to work very well - faster, and (quite possibly) better than both the Leica X1 and the Ricoh GXR + A12 ...

Having features like a 3.0 Inch diagonal high quality LCD view-screen and a "Live Histogram" that is easily visible and actually works in a useful way are (also) rather important, indeed!

One would have to trash only $750 USD instead of $2,000 USD to purchase the DMC-GF1 with 14-45 mm lens-kit included, and one would likely have many more sales/service options (compared to one Leica dealer, and reportedly no Ricoh dealers, located in one's home country). Future expandability (with G-series lenses) would not be sacrificed. And (perhaps) there is a certain panache' in these troubled financial times of actually saving (rather than spending) money ... :p

For the cost of a single Leica X1, one could likely afford both the Ricoh GXR + A12 Module AND the DMC-GF1 + 14-45 mm lens-kit.

For the cost of a Ricoh GXR + A12 Module. one could likely afford a DMC-GF1 with BOTH of the available lens-kits.

For the cost of a DMC-GF1 body (only), one could likely afford a DMC-LX3 AND DxO Optics Pro 6.x ... :p
 
I got your point Jeremy about de Lumix (it´s very nice camera indeed, my first digicam was a Lumix with a Leica lens, it´s not too big, I guess it´s comes in black, rigth? The red one it´s like a stop sign!!!). But, how much it will cost me to get a prime lens, not the panckake lens? Remember, I just want to attach a 35-50mm range film type lens, no zoom, no tele, no wide angle. Just a very fast lens (about a 1.7 f-stop) to work easy in the range of 80-200 ISO. Would you recomend me a Lumix-Prime lens combination? Because I can buy a Lumix here in Argentina with all the guarantee and service, Thanks again
Guillermo
 
Guillermo,

Yes, the DMC-GF1 comes in black.

Know that I am not an add-on "lens-expert" (none of my 5 Lumix cameras used externally mounted lenses).

However, the Lumix "pancake" that you provided the link to is the one that I was about to point you towards.

The DP Review for this (40 mm equivalent in terms of 35mm comparison) lens-kit is at:
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/pan ... 0_1p7_o20/
with favorable MTF test-results at:
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/pan ... /page3.asp
and this favorable conclusion:
"Overall, we can't help but conclude that the 20mm F1.7 is the first must-have lens for Micro Four Thirds, and one which especially makes sense with the compact-bodied E-P1 and GF1. On these cameras it provides a winning combination of small size, high all-round image quality and excellent low-light capability." at:
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/pan ... /page4.asp

Here is a PDF chart of all of the Lumix "G-Series" lenses:
http://www.panasonic.net/avc/lumix/syst ... _chart.pdf

Here is an article about newer G-series lenses to be released in 2010 (none of which appear to be better for your stated purposes):
http://www.digicamreview.com/2010/03/fu ... enses.html

The LUMIX G 20mm f/1.7 Aspherical Lens is $399 USD (when purchased separately) at:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com

The (better) news is that you can buy the DMC-GF1 with the 20 mm f/1.7 lens as a package.
Adorama (through Amazon.com) has the DMC-GF1 NEW with the 20mm "pancake" lens for $865 USD at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002MU ... C6HOH9AVE6
Adorama will ship internationally - or you may be able to find this from more local dealers in your country?
The DMC-GF1 with the "pancake" lens-kit is identified as the "DMC-GF1C".
I am not sure how the Black case-color is "called out" in the product-designator. Be sure to check that out -
as it now comes in "Pink" as well "as "Red" case-colors ... :roll:

While this particular lens does not have image-stabilization (as does the 14-45 mm), it is faster (at F=1.7).
(Assuming that you are not needing a lot of Depth of Field), setting the F Number that low should not be a big issue ...
It appears (to my eyes) that DMC-GF1 JPGs look good up to ISO=800. The "raw" noise should be less (since it is the high
level of Gamma correction applied in the in-camera "JPG engines" that results in amplification of image-sensor noise).

And, the "pancake" lens-kit will give you the "pocket-able" size as well as (relative) physical lightness that you desire.

There is an extensive review of the DMC-GF1 at:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicGF1/

The DMC-GF1 features user-implementable "pixel-mapping". It is likely (but not certain from my research) that
the results of the pixel-mapping are used to (also) correct the "raw" image-files (similar to certain Pentax
camera models, as well as the Adobe 2008 DNG file-format standards for DNG-recording camera models).

There are 9 Panasonic DMC-GF1 "raw" images-files at this Photography Blog web-page that you could download:
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ ... le_images/
Take a good look at them with your Silkypix Pro to make sure that the image quality meets your expectations! ... :p

I don't get a monetary commission (or even some necessary emotional thrill) if you happen to choose to purchase a DMC-GF1.
So (for your sake), take a good look, and do your research, before you may decide on your particular camera model purchase!

My first digicam was a 6 Mpixel DMC-LZ5 with a "Venus Plus" chip-set that I bought in June 2006. The lens is not a (branded) Leica (as are the lenses on all of my other Panasonics). However, I have taken more than 16,000 shots with it over the years, and I still like it for what it is (though my recent DMC-LX3 "raw" work with DxO Optics Pro has largely replaced it lately). It's auto-focus works well (much better than the later 8 Mpixel DMC-TZ4), and though one must keep the ISO at 80 or 100 due to limited signal/noise ratio, and the color rendering falls short of the abilities of my later Lumix cameras, it has captured many beloved shots. Many of the images that I have posted on this forum (that are not posted on the DMC-LX3 thread) were taken with the DMC-LZ5 (though some of the flower shots have been taken with the 8 Mpixel DMC-TZ4). I (still) like the clarity of details that the older models offered. The "Mpixel-wars" since have led all point-and-shoots (including Panasonic, with the exception of the DMC-LX3) to the all too typical detail-smearing excessive NR, over-saturation of colors, and excessive over-sharpening when producing JPGs (with less and less user-control).

The Panasonic Lumix Micro 4:3 series cameras (appear) to be be far superior to the small-sensor (almost universally 1/2.33 Inch image-sensor) "point-and-pray" lines, however ...

What Lumix 6 Mpixel model did you first purchase (that you have now given to your son)? Was it (per chance) a DMC-LZ4 or DMC-LZ5?
 
Thanks again Jeremy for all you detailed info and links. I´ll look at them very carefully. I have to take a buying decision very soon. About my beloved Lumix, it´s a DMC-FX9, 6mp. It´s comes with a Leica DC Vario-Elmarit asph zoom, and besides the just 6mp, it still takes great pictures to be printed at 4x6". Lovely little camera that my son is enyoing now very much.
Guillermo
 
Guillermo,

You are welcome, my friend!

I have learned from this research into all three cameras discussed. The Ricoh cameras (particularly the "raw"-recording models) are very impressive offerings, indeed. It's too bad that they do not presently offer a (less protruding, thus more pocket-able) large-sensor "pancake" Module for the GXR!

However, the build quality of the DMC-GF1 and the "pancake" lens-kit appear to be an excellent option. I read about some color-shifting in JPG mode. But if you are primarily interested in "raw" recording with it (as I would be if I purchased one), it looks very good to me.

It's probably a good thing that my beloved DxO Optics Pro 6.x does not support the DMC-GF1 (though it does support the larger, heavier, and almost twice as expensive DMC-GH1) - because, after all this reading about the DMC-GF1, I would probably buy one ... :p

Having already purchased 5 cameras in a mere four years time since June 2006, I think that I should stick with what I already have, and make the most out of my presently-owned 10 Mpixel DMC-LX3 (for macro and mid-range distances), 10 Mpixel DMC-FZ50 (for zoom and long-range distances), and my good old 6 Mpixel DMC-LZ5 for "old time's sake". I (foolishly) gave my 8 Mpixel DMC-FZ30 away, and sold my 8 Mpixel DMC-TZ4 because the auto-focus (in anything but spot-focus mode at about EV=7.0 or above) was really, really mediocre. The DMC-LX3 is much better than the DMC-TZ4.

I feel a bit like a "stranger in a strange land" with my Panasonic cameras and my DxO Optics Pro "raw" processor here in the land of Ricoh and Silkypix leanings ... Hopefully, some of my posted photographic images, as well as some of my technical mutterings, have offered some beauty to enjoy (and, I hope, a bit of useful as well as accurate information here and there).

Best Regards,

DM
 
The Ricoh cameras (particularly the "raw"-recording models) are very impressive offerings, indeed. It's too bad that they do not presently offer a (less protruding, thus more pocket-able) large-sensor "pancake" Module for the GXR!
Yes, I fully agree with you, DM. That`s was one thing that make feel sad about Ricoh. As a very proud owner of two Ricoh`s (GRD2 and CX1), I was expecting some more "classic" aproach with the GXR (not the A-12 solution, it`s not for me). Should I wait for a GRD IV? If Ricoh releases a new module for the GXR (my dream come true will be a 40mm -35mm film type- 1.7 f stop, no macro, no zoom) I`m sure I will go for it. I prefer to stick with Ricoh. But I have to start my proyect before the end of this year and I don´t know if that kind of lens will ever be release. Any clues, Pavel?
Thanks
guillermo
 
So far there is announced only one pancake 28/2.5 for a near future (Autumn this year). I guess we may see 40mm pancake in a future, but it's hard to predict when exactly. I seriously doubt it will happen this year ;)

I think the main reason why Ricoh decided to go with 50mm macro is that macro is very popular amongst the Japanese photographers. And Japan is primary market for Ricoh. And the second reason why Ricoh probably did not jump into pancakes is that pancake lenses are about serious compromises and visibly lower image quality. LUMIX G 20mm f/1.7 may be a very good lens, but it does not match the quality of A12 lens, especially in corners. DPreview lens test of A12 cannot be taken seriously if compared with G 20mm, because DPReview RAW conversion used for A12 lens test was not optimal.

All in all, I'm sure we will get some pancakes from Ricoh in a future, but I think the design will be traditionally "Ricoh" conservative. In other words, high quality but most probably "slower" lenses ("slower" in terms of aperture number).
 
CHICHORNIO":28jzu4cz said:
... Should I wait for a GRD IV? If Ricoh releases a new module for the GXR (my dream come true will be a 40mm -35mm film type- 1.7 f stop, no macro, no zoom) I`m sure I will go for it. I prefer to stick with Ricoh.....
Thanks
guillermo

Guillermo,

I think the GXR will be the big brother of the GRD line allowing Ricoh to flex it's muscles in ways they can not with a all in one solution. For me my perfect pair for my GRD III would be a 75/2.5 equivalent would be perfect for me. Right now I have a GX100 paired with my GRD and while I would prefer a prime lens with macro (I love it) I'm pretty OK right now as the handling of both cameras is world class and almost the same.

B2 (;->
(aka Bill Bingham 2nd)
 
It looks great! This is exactly what I miss on GXR...the ability to use old-school manual lenses. If you don't mind using the manual focus and the fact that there is no aperture written in EXIF, it may be a perfect solution for you? Just don't forget that 40mm lens attached on 4/3 camera turns into 80mm! All focal lengths on 4/3 are multiplied by 2.
 
I've said it in other forums and I'll repeat it here. The only way the GXR will make it is to offer more APS-C sensor modules. Even with the new body prices showing from Japan of either $225 or $335 it is an expensive back (never mind what most of us paid for it). Having now owned both the A12 and S10 modules I can say the IQ of the S10 just isn't there to justify the price. Granted, it is better than nothing and better than having to carry two cameras for when you need a wider field of view but it isn't worth the price (I wish I could say otherwise). I suspect the Sony NEX series will put a serious dent in both Samsung and Ricoh offerings in the APS-C sensor range camera, especially, if they offer a more professional model NEX 7. I love the UI on the GXR but the AF speed and the problems with MF seriously hamper the camera's usability. The Leica X1 suffers the same issues and once the BS factor wears off the complaints will start coming out. The only advantage the X1 offers is the greater compactness of a collapsing lens. The Sony with a pancake lens may be as small as physics will allow a larger sensor and that is the trade off one has to accept. It is still much smaller and lighter than any DSLR, especially when you factor in build quality and if Imaging Resources comparator is to be believed the image IQ is above most other APS-C sensor based cameras including the Nikon D90 (which I have owned). Ricoh needs that sensor in a 35mm module with the faster AF speed and higher ISO capability. Alternatively they need the sensor in a module that takes a variety of lenses with adapters.
 
Back
Top