R10 evolved to CX1!

[odklizec]

Only two hours ago, Ricoh President and CEO Mr. Shiro Kondo announced the release of a new digital compact Ricoh CX1! - the first Ricoh camera equipped with high speed and high sensitive CMOS sensor!

The hearth of CX1 is new 9.29MP 1/2.3-inch high sensitive CMOS sensor, capable of 4fps continuous mode! This sensor, together with Ricoh's new Smooth Engine IV and new image processing circuit, should deliver less noisy images without the distorted details and colours and expanded dynamic range up to 1EV (compared to the traditional sensors and processing). And that's not all! There is also new high dynamic range shooting mode, allowing to capture details both in highlights and shadows! From what I understand from the press release materials, this new shooting mode takes two consecutive photos with different exposure and merge them in one high dynamic range image. Basically, this new feature should be some kind of in-camera HDR processing as we know it from the DynamicPhotoHDR or Photomatix. This new High Dynamic Range mode should have its own position on the mode dial.

The high dynamic range performance should not be the only advantage of the new CMOS sensor used in CX1. It should also be pretty fast in continuous shooting, allowing to take full frame photos at 4fps speed! In M continuous mode even 30fps (the image size is set to N1728) and finally, in ultra-high-speed continuous mode is used 60/120fps speed (the image size is set to N640). The difference between 60fps and 120fps shooting mode is that you can use 60fps continuous mode for 2secs long shutter press or 1 sec for 120fps.

As I see it, this ultra-high-speed continuous mode is a variation of the Casio's high speed mode used in EX-F1 and EX-FH20. And looking closely at the CX1 CMOS specs, I believe it's the latest Sony 9.29MP CMOS 1/2.3
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_n ... 32cqr.html
What's interesting is the fact that this Sony sensor should be capable of 30fps in full resolution mode? But maybe this 30fps speed is only a theoretical speed, because not even the CASIO high speed camera does the 30fps in full resolution. But I guess we can expect another continuous mode speed improvement in CX2

What's else is new? Well, the same as R10, CX1 got large 3" screen. However, here ends all similarities. CX1 LCD is a VGA screen with 920,000 pixels (R10 has "only" 460,000 pixels)! If the R10 LCD resolution has been smooth, this new CX1 LCD should be super duper smooth and crispy Thanks to such high resolution, it allows to display up to 81 preview thumbnails! Additionally, the LCD is coated with anti-soiling layer, hard layer to prevent the scratches and anti-reflection coating for better visibility even in bright sunshine. I'm pretty curious about this LCD!

There is also new multi-pattern auto WB function, which evaluates the WB in separate areas of the scene. So it should produce much more realistic and precise WB under the difficult or mixed lightning conditions (better than traditional Auto WB used in R10).

Another new feature is multi-target AF function. In this new AF/shooting mode, the CX1 automatically focus to seven distances and take a shot for each of the focused distances. Then you can select the image with the best focus (according of your needs or preferences). There should be also new Focus Bracketing mode.

From the small, but very useful features, I would like to mention the ability to jump between the enlarged photos (in playback mode). This feature is already in GRDII and GX200 and I'm really happy to see it also in CX1. It's extremely handy feature for evaluating the image sharpness.

What I'm not very happy about is the absence or RAW. I, on the one hand, understand that the RAW is used in Ricoh's high-end cameras. But on the other hand, I know for sure that there are many GRD or GX photographers, who regularly use RAW and would be really happy about a small compact of CX1 size with its long zoom and option to shot in RAW! The manual controls are not that important in the camera of CX1 size. But it would be a brave and very innovative step from Ricoh adding the RAW output to something considered as an entry level camera (although packed with features so uncommon for such product segment). I really wish Ricoh could go beyond the traditional marketing segmentation of their products. Maybe next time?

For full press release visit this page:
http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/press/release/nr_cx1.html

First (small) CX1 samples here:
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=2337&p=8957#p8957

 

[VladimirV]

The LCD screen could really be fantastic, the one on the R10 is already very good but this sounds even better.
The CMOS sensor could be interesting and help with the IQ and the continuous shooting modes could be fun.
Overall it's a bit mixed, I hoped for more. Where is the RAW, there still are no manual controls and the video mode is still worse than what new mobile phones can deliver so not at all up to date.

 

[rui fernandes]

The more I read the more interesting it gets for my kind of shooting. Like I told you in the other topic, finaly I see a substitute for my R4. Even GX200 is not that portable as a tool day, and the high contrast situations is one of my favorite areas, so this is great news for me

I don't worry about video mode, but can sympathise with those who might be disapointed. I wonder what would be needed for making a this a very useful tool? It seems that something is beeing not esteemed or unvalued here? :roll:

If JPEG is good enough, I won't need RAW. OTOH, considering how better will be JPEG IQ, how much could it be with RAW?

BTW, thank you for pointing the playback magnifyed function! Somehow I skipped that page on the manual

 

[thelps]

Thanks Pavel for letting us know about this CX1 - an interesting camera and perhaps a hint of what may come for GX300/GRDIII ? :lol: . The HDR function does interest me greatly. :shock:

Perhaps RAW would be considered by Ricoh with a group request from us? or is it omitted because its a marketing issue? Surely to add RAW is only a software/firmware upgrade?

Here is the Ricoh USA page in English for some more information http://ricoh.com/r_dc/cx/cx1/

 

[thelps]

DP review have a link also http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09021901ricohcx1.asp

But I dont think anything extra can be found here. It will be sample images we all want to see :shock: :shock:

 

[odklizec]

I'm really curious about performance of this new CMOS sensor combined with new Ricoh processing engine and processing. I think there could be a visible improvement in image quality over the R8 and R10? But I agree that RAW would be a big bonus anyway. Especially now in light of new Canon and Panasonic zoom camera announcements. Neither of them have RAW but they are equipped with longer zooms, HD video and this all packed in very compact bodies. So if Ricoh wants to compete with these big brands, there should be added something really big and uncommon for such class of camera.

I don't care about video, but I agree that Ricoh video is something that really needs an improvement. DIVX codec would help a lot.

But I'm personally very interested about new HDR feature integrated in CX1, because this could be the BIG feature! Of course, it all depends on its implementation If done properly and if it produces good results, this could be it!

I see some potential problems with it, where the main issue could be the image alignment while shooting without tripod. I mean, the 4fps shooting is fast, but I don't think it's fast enough for micro movements/rotations while taking the handheld shots. And from my own experience with HDRI programs, even the small movement/rotation in consecutively taken photos matters. If nothing else, the incorrectly aligned photos make the merged photo unsharp. In HDRI programs, there is usually an option to aligned the input photos manually. But I'm pretty sure that there is no such option in CX1. So image alignment could be the biggest problem of this new HDR feature.

But it's to early to say anything positive or negative about the CX1 implementation of HDR. I'm eager to see some samples or even test the CX1 myself. I really do believe that this in-camera HDR could be a big selling point. (...and RAW integration could be another...someone is listening?)

Do you guys know what's funny? Some time ago, when I read about the high speed Sony sensors, I thought that it would be really cool to have them in R camera. It seem Ricoh thought the same way?

 

[mdavi]

The Ricoh CX1 is very interesting and there is probably a more "pro" model coming out based on that sensor. I am looking forward to see how the CX1 compares to the Fuji F200EXR at high ISO.

 

[thelps]

The Ricoh CX1 is very interesting and there is probably a more "pro" model coming out based on that sensor. I am looking forward to see how the CX1 compares to the Fuji F200EXR at high ISO.

I would guess that the CX1 and F200EXR will be priced very close so will be direct competitors. I really love the very clean design of the CX1, the rear controls are very minimal in appearance and layout. I will defiantly want to see the display on this camera!

 

[odklizec]

I'm not pretty sure if posting the following link is a very good idea. It can be very...very misleading. But since there is nothing better yet...

If you visit the below link, you can find a number of photos taken with Casio EX-FC100. If I'm not mistaken, this camera uses exactly the same high speed SONY CMOS as CX1. Please, bear in mind that it's impossible to approximate how good or bad will look the CX1 photos just from these few Casio photos! Both cameras uses different lens but mainly completely different image processing! So take these photos only as a guide, not a rule!
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/revie ... 10248.html

I personally concentrated on the ISO test. It's usually very helpful to tell how good or bad performs the in-camera JPEG processing and how noisy is the sensor. It's apparent, that Casio applies rather strong noise reduction on anything above ISO100. Only this low ISO value appears to be untouched by NR. Then the things go down hill rather quickly. In my opinion, visibly noisier ISO800 looks better than the "cleaned" ISO400 photo. But it may be just a matter of my taste In general, I think the noise is not that bad even at ISO 1600. I mean the sensor does not appear to be that noisy. It's the noise reduction what makes the high ISO shots so ugly, not the noise as such! Of course, there is a lot of noise, because the 1/2.3" sensor is way too small and crammed with too much pixels. But honestly, it definitely does not appear that noisy as conventional CCDs of the same size and at the same ISO speed.

I believe, that if Ricoh would apply the R7-R8 type of color (chroma) noise reduction and leave the grain (luminance) noise intact and don't apply too strong sharpening (as they did in R7, R8), they would have a very good ISO100-400 (800) performer. What you guys think?

 

[Grus74]

I never use video and only shoot jpg so as for some kind of sidekick/partycamera/don't-dare-to-bring-my-GRDII this seems to be bang on target for me.

And if this is just the first step of Ricohs new generation then we may just be up for something great in the near future!

 

[Stoneart]

I just closely compared the photos of R10 and CX1 and lo and behold: Ricoh also acted on the complaints of bad ergonomics regarding the thumb in shooting and improved the monitor layout, so that there is now again more room for the thumb on a dedicated thumb rest! Great Ricoh!

But please Ricoh, watch that the camera does not get to chunky: The CX1 is 1.8 mm thicker and 12 grams heavier than the R10. And the R8/R10 were some 30 grams heavier than previous models. That difference was quite noticeable and detracted it from being an always in my pocket camera.

Regards,

Stoneart

 

[odklizec]

Hi Stoneart and welcome here! I think the additional 12grams are the price of replaced front rubber grip with protruded metal grip. I'm personally not sure about this "improvement"? Sure, the rubber grip can (and often do so) peel apart. But I'm quite sure that this metal grip will be very slippery and not very comfortable to hold. I guess people will soon stick a piece of leather or rubber tape around this new grip?

 

[VladimirV]

I think the additional 12grams are the price of replaced front rubber grip with protruded metal grip. I'm personally not sure about this "improvement"?

I feel the same way, don't see the point in taking away the excellent rubber grip from the R10.
Since the camera is now as thick as a GRD they could have at least put back the DB-60 battery, this would have been a welcome change.

 

[thelps]

I wonder if we will see this Sony sensor in the GX300/GRDIII ? :?:

 

[Stoneart]

Yes, I think we should start a referendum on having the rubber grip back!

 

[odklizec]

I wonder if we will see this Sony sensor in the GX300/GRDIII ? :?:

I pretty hope not! No matter how good or bad is this new sensor, it's still only 1/2.3! Even with GRDII 1/1.75 sensor is hard to produce some blurry background. It's even harder with smaller sensors. In addition, small sensors packed with megapixels are worse in dynamic range area. Sure, CCD/CMOS technology dramatically improved over the years. But the dynamic range and noise is still a serious problem. Small sensors gets more and more megapixels and that's bad. So as for me, adding 1/2.3 or equivalent sensor to GRDIII/GX300 would be a huge disappointment and step back. I don't want or expect APSC or full frame sensor. But 4/3 in compact body is definitely doable. The question is, how hard/pricey for Ricoh would be to join the 4/3 club?

 

[VladimirV]

I pretty hope not! No matter how good or bad is this new sensor, it's still only 1/2.3! Even with GRDII 1/1.75 sensor is hard to produce some blurry background. It's even harder with smaller sensors. In addition, small sensors packed with megapixels are worse in dynamic range area.

I agree with you Pavel but not because of the ability to produce blurry background and even with the noise I can live with but for the higher dynamic range. I for one hope the GX300 with have a 2/3" sensor and a constant f2.0 24mm-90mm zoom lens, this would be the ideal camera for me and cover everything I need. The sensor does not need to be bigger than 2/3" because having a big DOF comes in very handy in low light situations where you can use the lens wide open and not have to sacrifice too much the DOF.
The Panasonic LC1 is the perfect camera to show how I want the GX300 to look like, take it as it is but shrink it down to half the size, leave the controls as they are and just put a new 2/3" sensor in there. I just hope the manual focus and zoom will be around the lens like on the LC1, works so much better and faster.

For the GRD III it would be best for me if Ricoh would also stick with a max 2/3" or if they can get one a 1" sensor but put a very fast f1.2 lens on there and keep the size like the GR21 film camera.

 

[thelps]

I wonder if we will see this Sony sensor in the GX300/GRDIII ? :?:

I pretty hope not! No matter how good or bad is this new sensor

Pavel, Its not so much that I wanted this sensor, its just I am wondering if Ricoh tend to use the same sensor in all their cameras? For example is the sensor in the R10 different to the GX200/GRD ?

Improved dynamic range is my main wish for the next generation, I think this is because the light is harsh in my part of the world.

 

[VladimirV]

its just I am wondering if Ricoh tend to use the same sensor in all their cameras? For example is the sensor in the R10 different to the GX200/GRD ?

The R10 has a 1/1.23" 10 MP sensor, the GRD II uses a 1/1.7" 10 MP sensor like the GX100 and the GX200 uses a 1/1.7" 12MP sensor. The R series always had smaller sensors than the G series due to the smaller cameras and longer zooms.

I hope Ricoh will produce their own sensors or have someone produce a specialized sensor for the GRD III and maybe also GX300. Ricoh is a big enough company to be able to afford spending the money for this even if the camera division makes only a small part of the whole business. If Leica can get a specialized Kodak sensor so should Ricoh be able to do, I doubt the M8 sells in huge volumes and Leica is close to being bankrupt for years now.

 

[Skippy]

But 4/3 in compact body is definitely doable. The question is, how hard/pricey for Ricoh would be to join the 4/3 club?

Pavel, I think it will be difficult for Ricoh to join. First of all it will be a loss of prestige for Ricoh to be "forced" to join a platform started by competitors and
secondly it is doubtfull if Ricoh would be allowed to join now the initial mft-designs have been pioneered and payed by others.
Frankly, I'm not optimistic about the future of GRD-line. I think they will rendered obsolete by new mft-cameras like the eagerly awaited new Olympus-models.
I for sure am very curious about these new mft-bodies which of course allow different lenses to be mounted. The idea of a nice compact mft-Olympus with 1 or 2
Olympus zooms and some Voigtländer or Zeiss M-mount prime lenses (via adapter) is very tempting.