Is it me or is GXR P10 unit very noisy? And what about S10?

[ginger]

Hi guys,

I've been pondering for quite a while on whether to get a GXR. I like its modular design, build quality and the Ricoh menu system is just awesome.

So I went to down to a camera shop in a shopping mall to test drive a P10 unit. I used auto setting (including auto for noise reduction) and took a snap without any zoom. And I got a shock when I previewed the image. At 2.5x zoom preview, there was noise all over the place. I thought it was the lighting but the mall was quite well lit. A few more snaps in auto mode confirmed this.

Now I'm having second thoughts about getting the GXR. Did I perform the test correctly? Anyone have any tips on how to improve the image quality or is this something common on P10 auto mode in indoor condition? Also, how is the S10 unit compares to the P10 in terms on indoor image quality?

Any advise will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[odklizec]

Hi ginger and welcome on the board!

Well, I'm afraid, P10 is one noisy camera, simply because it's equipped with too tiny sensor (1/2.3"). In fact, it uses exactly the same sensor as Ricoh CX3/4. S10 does a bit better job when indoor, because of slightly larger sensor. (1/1.7" the same as in GRDIII). But you should not expect miracles! Even S10 sensor is too small for noise free indoor and low-light performance. Something can be improved if shooting to RAW and then processed with RAW editor equipped with reasonable noise reduction processing (for example LR3 or Photoshop Elements with latest ACR). But once again, you should not expect miracles! P10/S10 sensors are simply too small and their initial apertures are too small for indoor/low-light photography above ISO200/400.

If you want reasonable and relative noise free indoor photos straight out of the camera, you need to get the A12 module (existing 50mm or the next week upcoming 28mm). A12 module is equipped with APSC sized sensor with relative noise free indoor performance even at high ISO. I'm frequently using A12 at ISO3200 and the noise is much lower than P10/S10 at IS0200/400. Size of sensor always matter

 

[ginger]

Hi Pavel.

Thanks a for advise! Really appreciate it.

I will take a look at the A12 module then. I heard that it's not going to be cheap and there are some issues with autofocus performance? Also, I understand A12 uses a fixed focal length lens? I am keen on the S10 and P10 because of their versatile focal length, especially the P10. I'm currently using the Sony HX5V and frequently use 3 to 4x optical zoom.

I've also looked at other large sensor cameras like the Sony NEX 5 and the Micro Four Third cameras but the GXR is still an interesting camera for me because of its compact size and modular system.

Cheers!

 

[Klaatu]

Hi ginger, hi Pavel,

i agree with Pavel, size is importand. But size is not everything, technique is importand too. The size and the quality of the GXR is outstanding even in the comparison with all of the other cameras that use a small Sensor. You can choose different lenses with different sensors and the camera will always be "compact". In spring 2011 we will face a zoom - module with a APSC sensor. There will be something for everybody. Till now i am using the S10 and i am happy with it. I am looking forward to get the new 28mm as soon as it will be in the shops. I am sure this combination will fit perfect to almost all fotographic situations that i will face.

I am sure everybody will agree: the best camera you can buy is the one you always have thereby.........

this one is just out of the camera


this one is out of RAW with a small pp - noise, contrast ect

 

[odklizec]

You are of course right Klaatu. The technique of shooting in low light is always important and usually, if printed in small resolution, the noise is not problem at all. It's just that the APSC will always deliver more detailed and less noisy images without special care of technique.

Ginger, as Klaatu correctly pointed out, there is APSC zoom planned for next year. Specs and release date are unknown yet. From the GXR road map published during Photokina, it appears to be 24-90mm lens with unknown initial aperture. But I doubt it will start at anything faster than f2.8. Even the f2.8 is very doubtful considering it should be small lens. As for the AF speed of existing A12 50mm, the truth is it's not a speed daemon. But on Monday. there will be released new GXR FW with prospect of significantly improved AF of 50mm module. The A12 28mm should be very fast right away.

 

[ginger]

Thanks Klaatu and Pavel.

Nice shots from S10 Klaatu. It does look much better than the P10 shots I took at the mall, and the mall lighting was much brighter! Perhaps I made the mistake of shooting in all auto mode? Not sure...

I'm glad that Ricoh is pushing the GXR line-up for next year. If the APS-C with zoom does get announced, it will definitely be on my shopping list ! Yes, a fast lens is preferable but I'm a hobbyist so I don't really that much detail in my images (although more detail is always nice ) -- more important for me is quick focus, some focal extension and of course low noise. After your reply Klaatu, the S10 seems interesting -- and I just realized it can also extend focal reach with the teleconverter!

Pavel, any comments on using the teleconverter with the S10? I understand vignetting is still an issue when you use with the A12 but with S10? Also looking forward to see your report of the A12 performance with the new firmware Pavel. I hope the performance gains will be noticeable.

Thanks all!

 

[anthony_mazzeri]

Perhaps I made the mistake of shooting in all auto mode? Not sure...

Yes, likely the Auto-ISO max was set to 3200 so the the camera automatically used as high an ISO as it could even if it was not necessary in that mall setting, hence the excess noise. The P10 I'm finding starts showing noticeable noise above ISO 400 in low lighting, so just set the Auto max ISO at 400 or less in the menu.

 

[odklizec]

Ginger, maybe it would be helpful if you post any of your "noisy" attempts (with preserved exif)? We can examine the photo and suggest you what to do to improve your P10 photos?

P10, despite its tiny sensor, is capable of some impressive outputs. It's just somewhat more challenging to use. I personally like the P10 more than S10. Why? Mainly because of its speed! P10 is noticeably faster than S10. P10 AF rocks (although it tends to miss the focus at the tele end), continuous speed is dramatically faster too and the noise performance is not THAT much worse from the S10 output. P10 DNG photos can be very effectively cleaned from the color noise using the Adobe ACR (either in LR3 or Photoshop Elements). You can get very usable photos even at ISO800! See the full size examples I posted here:
viewtopic.php?p=21877#p21877

As for using teleconverter with S10, there is no problem with vignetting or corner sharpness. At least not with Ricoh own TC-1 teleconverter. I'm afraid, I did not try the 3rd party converters I tried with A12. But I have no doubt TC-1 will surpass them all, simply because it's directly designed for GX/S10 lens. On the other hand, I tried to compare S10 + TC1 with P10 at 135mm and guess what? P10 wins hands down

As for the A12 50mm AF speed improvement, see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WKyEwsQPiA
It's definitely an improvement!

 

[ginger]

Thanks Pavel.

I'll head down to the mall again and try to take some shots with the P10 unit again. Any recommended settings I should try when taking the test shots?

Cheers!

 

[odklizec]

It's hard to recommend something without knowing the lightning conditions. You see, there is no always working setup for all conditions. If taking shots inside, I would start with ISO200 (max 400), Center exposure metering, enabled stabilization. Depending of the lightning, Multi-Pattern Auto WB or select WB that suits the actual lightning (I prefer warmer colors so I often use Daylight or even cloudy WB, but it does not very well with artificial lightning). Keep the zoom at 28mm. The longer the zoom is, the higher ISO you will have to use to make the camera hand-holdable. I would definitely shot RAW+Fine JPEG. RAW is definitely a way to make the photos taken at ISO400 (and higher) usable. When shooting inside or generally in low light, correct exposure (or slight overexposure) is a key to less noisy photos. But this is often in contradiction with the need of reasonable shutter speed (at least 1/20 for 28mm). For capturing moving subjects you need at least 1/100 or you have to learn and master the technique called panning. With panning you can take reasonable sharp photos of moving subjects even with shutter speed around 1/20. But it takes some time to learn this technique and does not work in all situations. Photography with small sensor (especially inside or in low light) is definitely not an easy thing

 

[Wiener]

Ginger,
I will add my rather limited thoughts to this discussion, if I may?
I have been trying out the P10 now for a few days and also have to confess to being surprised at how much noise was present in the first images I took. But after some consideration, I concluded, like all cameras and particularily small sensor cameras, you have to work with their good sides whilst recognising where there weakness lie.
In some ways my GX100 is a real dog; ISO 200 and above produce dreadful results, as do high contrast scenes.
And yet I really like the camera because, once you manage to get everything to come together, it is capable of producing images with which I am very satisfied with.
I am guessing that the P10 is just another variation along similar lines, whilst at the same time being a useful tool in the whole GXR toolbox.
I hope to post one or two of my P10 images shortly for second opinions...
Good luck with your choosing!
Andy

 

[ginger]

Thanks all for the tips!

Perhaps I've been so used to shooting in auto mode with my P&S camera I've taken traditional photography skills for granted. I think learning (and handling) the GXR will be a challenge for a newbie like me. But I hope with the help of the ricoh community, I can improve on my photo skills over time.

Hopefully I will be back early next week with some sample shots from the mall again.

Cheers!