ZDP-189
New Member
Guys and gals, get a load of this:
http://www.ricoh.co.jp/release/2011/0201_1.html
Rough translation:
http://www.ricoh.co.jp/release/2011/0201_1.html
Rough translation:
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Tell your friends about us!GXR M-Mount officially Announced
- Thread starter ZDP-189
- Start date
odklizec
PK
Great news! So guys, start saving for M mount lenses! 
There are some very good and relative cheap ones!
I guesstomorrow from 9.2. we will see some photos of the prototype shown at the CP+ (Japan camera show)? Keep watching the dc.watch.impress.co.jp
There are some very good and relative cheap ones! I guess
http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/lenses/
I don't know much about M-mount lens, are they all fixed aperture and fixed focal length, with not AF? :?
If so, this means the new unit is more like a fancy tool / toy for real photographers, but not targeting at people like me - those who look for a useful tool with good quality.
Clearly this new unit is not for me (in terms of both usage and PRICE). To me, the A12 50mm is very similar to this M-mount concept anyway. I shall just kept look forward for the aps-c zoom lens unit and a unit with similar functions as the CX5
I don't know much about M-mount lens, are they all fixed aperture and fixed focal length, with not AF? :?
If so, this means the new unit is more like a fancy tool / toy for real photographers, but not targeting at people like me - those who look for a useful tool with good quality.
Clearly this new unit is not for me (in terms of both usage and PRICE). To me, the A12 50mm is very similar to this M-mount concept anyway. I shall just kept look forward for the aps-c zoom lens unit and a unit with similar functions as the CX5
ZDP-189
New Member
Sure I will. Do you think we will have to wait for the fanfare on the 9th or will the cellphone camera brigade will get any sneaky pics before then?
Sadly, it's moot for me, because I think I blew my budget on the Fujifilm X100. Mind you, if it's not coming out for nine months it won't reach foreign shores till very late in the year. That means there won't be many second hand units till about a year after the X100 comes out! So maybe I'll pick one up then.
In the meantime, the market will decide if there really is a use for the GXR M module. It won't change the EVIL game. Most people who shoot digital M-mount probably already have a M8/M9, M4/3, NEX, NX, etc. I like the idea of Ricoh GXR build quality, display and controls. And of course, Ricoh won't market it properly. For a GXR owner, it's different proposition; a must-have.
Sadly, it's moot for me, because I think I blew my budget on the Fujifilm X100. Mind you, if it's not coming out for nine months it won't reach foreign shores till very late in the year. That means there won't be many second hand units till about a year after the X100 comes out! So maybe I'll pick one up then.
In the meantime, the market will decide if there really is a use for the GXR M module. It won't change the EVIL game. Most people who shoot digital M-mount probably already have a M8/M9, M4/3, NEX, NX, etc. I like the idea of Ricoh GXR build quality, display and controls. And of course, Ricoh won't market it properly. For a GXR owner, it's different proposition; a must-have.
ZDP-189
New Member
@eidiacc, no, this is not targetted at the retail mass-market that would buy the CX5. It's not a pro choice either. Pros would be shooting different kinds of cameras, even those very few who use Leica M lenses. The GXR M is deep into hard-core enthusiast territory. These people will already have a dry cabinet full of non-zooming manual focus lenses and love to shoot them either for the unique and characterful images they produce, or the sheer perverse joy of flaunting a $3,000 dollar lens.
odklizec
PK
eidiacc, The M mount lenses are not fixed aperture lenses. You can select (on the lens) the aperture you want to use. True, most of the lenses are primes, because only primes can be made with outstanding image quality. See the A12 modules and GRD lens. There is no way the upcoming APSC zoom module will be anywhere near as good as A12 prime lenses.
But yes, there will be (most probably) no AF support, because M lenses are mechanical lenses with no electrical guts and connection. They are solid metal and glass. And also the EXIF tags may show some odd details like F0 or 0mm focal length But messed EXIF details may be avoided by implementing support for coded M lenses (as does Leica) and some EXIF presets in menu (selection of actual F number or focal length).
As for the missing AF, yes, it may be a complication for many users. On the other hand, if you want to improve your photographic skills, MF lenses could make you a much better photographer! Using primes will force you to think more about the composition before you press the shutter. Using MF will learn you patience and force you to keep only the very best photos I'm sure that using the MF ring on M mount lenses will be much better experience than using MF ring on actual A12 modules. Why? Because the M lenses have mechanical focus ring, which is way better for precise and quick focus than electrically driven MF ring.
But yes, there will be (most probably) no AF support, because M lenses are mechanical lenses with no electrical guts and connection. They are solid metal and glass. And also the EXIF tags may show some odd details like F0 or 0mm focal length
But messed EXIF details may be avoided by implementing support for coded M lenses (as does Leica) and some EXIF presets in menu (selection of actual F number or focal length). As for the missing AF, yes, it may be a complication for many users. On the other hand, if you want to improve your photographic skills, MF lenses could make you a much better photographer! Using primes will force you to think more about the composition before you press the shutter. Using MF will learn you patience and force you to keep only the very best photos
I'm sure that using the MF ring on M mount lenses will be much better experience than using MF ring on actual A12 modules. Why? Because the M lenses have mechanical focus ring, which is way better for precise and quick focus than electrically driven MF ring.I’m still not to sure about how I feel about this module. I know it sounds crazy but I was hoping for a Full Frame sensor, that way we could really take advantage of the lenses without having to worry about the crop factor. It would have also distinguished Ricoh from the rest of the mirrorless cameras which is my main concern. How and what are Ricoh going to do to make this module different to buying an NEX or M4/3 and putting a Leica lens on it?
What I would like to see if a change in how MF is done with the GXR. If anyone has used M4/3 to manually focus you know it can be fiddy, for precise focus you need to zoom the screen in then focus and take the shot, maybe Ricoh could implement the range finder principle for focusing. Now that would really separate them from the other mirrorless cameras.
What I would like to see if a change in how MF is done with the GXR. If anyone has used M4/3 to manually focus you know it can be fiddy, for precise focus you need to zoom the screen in then focus and take the shot, maybe Ricoh could implement the range finder principle for focusing. Now that would really separate them from the other mirrorless cameras.
ZDP-189":s2f39e2k said:
I’m talking about how Ricoh could change how to focus using manual lenses. Rangefinders have the boxes which you need to align to achieve focus, now weather something like that could be implemented to the GXR electronically is another matter. But it would be a big selling point (not to mention easier focussing), otherwise it would be no different to putting a Leica lens on an NEX and focusing that way.
silverbullet
Member
As a former Leica analogue shooter I'm really happy to see what most of us voted already. The Ricoh will be the first choice for Leica M8 and M9 users as a backup camera in the first step. Gradually they will recognize how capable a GXR really is and for me it'sclear that a lot of people will kick off or don't buy an old and not so trustable M8 as a backup for the younger M9. The slightly bigger crop of 1.5 ./. 1.33 of a M8 doesn't bother so much but the hassle of cut filters in front of M8 lenses will be history.
Concerning the focus accuracy it's from 50mm onwards much easier to work with the GXR and from 90 - 135mm it's the only workable solution without too many hit and miss shots.
People without having M lenses should only consider lenses lenses from Leica or Voigtlander when they want to shoot long f.e. 75mm - 90mm. The Ricoh lensors as there are 28mm and 50mm macro are so good, it's better to use these instead buying M-mount lenses.
There are so many M-lenses outside, it's unbelievable for people which are not so deep involved in the Leica world......
A hint from my side: there are really capable and cheap Russian lenses for the Zorki and other Russian Leica-look-like cameras from the past. The name is Jupiter....
Concerning the focus accuracy it's from 50mm onwards much easier to work with the GXR and from 90 - 135mm it's the only workable solution without too many hit and miss shots.
People without having M lenses should only consider lenses lenses from Leica or Voigtlander when they want to shoot long f.e. 75mm - 90mm. The Ricoh lensors as there are 28mm and 50mm macro are so good, it's better to use these instead buying M-mount lenses.
There are so many M-lenses outside, it's unbelievable for people which are not so deep involved in the Leica world......
A hint from my side: there are really capable and cheap Russian lenses for the Zorki and other Russian Leica-look-like cameras from the past. The name is Jupiter....
odklizec
PK
I think the only possible way how to make the manual focus easier is to implement the focus confirmation. It works like that in most DSLRs (many of them with 3rd party chips mounted/glued on lens) even with old manual lenses. The problem is, that it does not really work with current mirrorless camera.
The focus confirmation in DSLRs is done via the phase detection sensors inside the camera body. This is also why the DSLRs are so quick in AF (outside the Live View mode). Mirrorless cameras, on the other hand, use sensor-based contrast detection for focus and in case of electronically driven lenses also for focus confirmation. This (focus confirmation) unfortunately does not work with manual lenses. There were some attempts to enable the focus confirmation in mirrorless cameras (namely m4/3) via the chinese adapters. But in best cases, the reliability of such solution was 50/50, which is in my opinion pretty low reliability.
And no, the reintroduced phase detection sensor in CX5 will be no use for manual focus confirmation. I have no doubt that Ricoh will introduce (in a near future) new GXR body with phase detection sensor. But it will most probably be usable only with the electronically driven lenses. For reliable focus confirmation of manual focus lenses, the phase detection sensor would have to be implemented inside the module body. In other words, as there is no electronic connection between the body/lens, there is no way to decide the actual focus position from an externally placed phase detection sensor. But there is still a hope Ricoh will find a way for reliable contrast detection-based focus confirmation. We can only hope
The focus confirmation in DSLRs is done via the phase detection sensors inside the camera body. This is also why the DSLRs are so quick in AF (outside the Live View mode). Mirrorless cameras, on the other hand, use sensor-based contrast detection for focus and in case of electronically driven lenses also for focus confirmation. This (focus confirmation) unfortunately does not work with manual lenses. There were some attempts to enable the focus confirmation in mirrorless cameras (namely m4/3) via the chinese adapters. But in best cases, the reliability of such solution was 50/50, which is in my opinion pretty low reliability.
And no, the reintroduced phase detection sensor in CX5 will be no use for manual focus confirmation. I have no doubt that Ricoh will introduce (in a near future) new GXR body with phase detection sensor. But it will most probably be usable only with the electronically driven lenses. For reliable focus confirmation of manual focus lenses, the phase detection sensor would have to be implemented inside the module body. In other words, as there is no electronic connection between the body/lens, there is no way to decide the actual focus position from an externally placed phase detection sensor. But there is still a hope Ricoh will find a way for reliable contrast detection-based focus confirmation. We can only hope
thelps
Active Member
silverbullet":1gujf063 said:
This module will certainly have some impact on GXR sales, I feel the focussing issue and how its implemented is the big question now. If this is an effective camera it would affect used M8 prices I suspect.
I can't help wonder if the new focus module in the CX5 may somehow be utilised on the M-module, maybe as some kind of electronic rangefinder? Can't see how it would work but just a thought!
thelps
Active Member
odklizec":2up3krqo said:
Maybe Ricoh have stuck some phase sensors inside the module adjacent the photo sensor? Without trying and testing these things in a lab you'd only be guessing. Even if you could get something to work will it then perform well enough to satisfy the detractors. Its like being back in the 1930's and 40s. I can imagine the discussions on external rangefinders and this and that back then - have we got far in 80 years?!
odklizec
PK
Phase detection inside the module would be nice, but I can't see a way how it could be done without the mirror? In most DSLRs (and Sony A55), it's done via angled mirror that transfers the light to the phase detection senors somewhere inside the camera body. In other words, the PD sensor cannot be directly in the light path because it would block the main sensor.
See how it's done in DSLR and A55:
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs ... cusPD.html
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta55/page2.asp
I can't imagine a similar solution in module of GXR size? And if we rule out the rangefinder style of focus (because of size and price of such solution), I think the contrast detection is the only way how to do this? But maybe it could be somehow coupled with external PD sensors? I really wish so, but I really doubt it's possible.
See how it's done in DSLR and A55:
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs ... cusPD.html
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta55/page2.asp
I can't imagine a similar solution in module of GXR size?
And if we rule out the rangefinder style of focus (because of size and price of such solution), I think the contrast detection is the only way how to do this? But maybe it could be somehow coupled with external PD sensors? I really wish so, but I really doubt it's possible.jsrockit":2apujs1w said:
But that’s not a differentiator, even though the module is a specifically made M Mount it is no different to an adaptor. Surely they both do the same thing? Have you seen the Novoflex adaptors? Wouldn’t call them sloppy.
I think we will have to wait and see what Ricoh can bring to the table. Don’t get me wrong, I’m exited about this and the possibilities this brings. In fact I was having a look at the Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses earlier :twisted: