Color rendering CX3 vs P10, a question

[wymjym]

Pavel or any that might know.
Has Ricoh ever offered firmware updates that address the jpg processing?
Specifically, I find that the JPG colors from the CX3 are much closer to real life than the JPG colors from the P10. I have adjusted the WB compensation in the P10 menu over the past few days and cannot get the resulting jpgs to closely match the CX3 (or reality). If I take the Raw output of the P10 and open it in CS5…the colors are very, very close to both reality and the CX3’s jpg output. A bit of adjustments and I’m happy. I would be happier if the P10 (JPG) would match a bit better to begin with. The P10 JPGs have a greenish/yellowish cast to the midtones. Once again, if I try to adjust the WB compensation to correct for this, areas that appeared ‘correct’ initially will take on the this compensation and they will be out of whack.
Thoughts and insight would be appreciated.
wj

 

[odklizec]

Hi wj,

As far as I know, there is not a JPEG processing related FW update for P10. I'm still waiting for review samples of CX3 and P10, so at the moment, I can't help you much. I assume that some fine tunning of P10 colors and/or WB compensation should fix the problem? But of course, it would be nice if P10 would do it right by default? I believe the CX3 photos are slightly more saturated and contrast to please the majority of users? P10 offers noticeable wider range of color settings so Ricoh probably set the P10 colors somewhat conservative?

 

[wymjym]

Hi wj,

As far as I know, there is not a JPEG processing related FW update for P10. I'm still waiting for review samples of CX3 and P10, so at the moment, I can't help you much. I assume that some fine tunning of P10 colors and/or WB compensation should fix the problem? But of course, it would be nice if P10 would do it right by default? I believe the CX3 photos are slightly more saturated and contrast to please the majority of users? P10 offers noticeable wider range of color settings so Ricoh probably set the P10 colors somewhat conservative?

Hi Pavel,
the wb compensation is 'global' so I must choose which color I want correct and accept the shift for the others.....I can certainly spend time by selecting areas to apply more correction in PP but this is a bit much for day to day shots.
I have my CX3 contrat set lower than default but never the less, this has more to do with a color profile than sharpness/contrast.
wj

 

[odklizec]

But I think that any FW update related to colors will be the same global as the WB compensation? You mentioned that the P10 colors have greenish/yellowish cast? So my guess is that you need to move the WB compensation to B-M segment? In any case, I will give it a try when I receive CX3 and P10.

BTW, any chance you can post an example photo of the problem? I mean both CX3 and P10 photo taken with the same color and WB settings?

 

[Detail Man]

Though this is all that I am able to find from Ricoh (now) regarding "Multi-Pattern Auto White Balance" functionality:
"It can be difficult to define a white balance for scenes mixing different light sources, such as when shooting indoors with flash or when shooting scenes with both sunlight and shadow. Multi-pattern auto white balance sets the white balance to fit the light source of each segregated area, thereby surpassing the past method (an average setting for the entire image) to reproduce color tones closer to those seen by the eye."
http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/cx/cx3/features.html

... I am certain that not long ago I found a Ricoh web-page that stated that this particular system uses a "knowledge base" relating to the specific changes made in the color-temperature reference of the lower-valued ("shadow", and what might also be perceived as "mid") tones. I am not able to find that web-page via Google at this point.

Speculating: It might make sense that (since the release of the CX3) Ricoh has modified their "MultiPattern Auto White Balance" look-up tables. It might also make sense that Ricoh would (for marketing purposes) like to be able to say that the GXR P10 Module has unique functionality that is not offered in the case of purchasing a CX3 (which is presently selling for about $150 less than the GXR/P10 combination). Thus, it may be that the differences reported are the result of an intentional product-change on the part of Ricoh?

 

[wymjym]

But I think that any FW update related to colors will be the same global as the WB compensation? You mentioned that the P10 colors have greenish/yellowish cast? So my guess is that you need to move the WB compensation to B-M segment? In any case, I will give it a try when I receive CX3 and P10.

BTW, any chance you can post an example photo of the problem? I mean both CX3 and P10 photo taken with the same color and WB settings?

Hi Pavel,
I shot the swimming pool this morning with both cameras.
Of course the images don’t show the difference as dramatically as I quite often see, but I’ll explain.
I tried to equalize both cameras settings, 100 iso, Multi P WB, no noise reduction, multi AF, etc, etc.
The dng file was not manipulated at all, simply saved as shot into a jpg file and then reduced in file size.
Same for all other images.

The P10 jpg is ‘greener/yellower’ than real life. If I adjust the color balance I must go into the blue very deeply and at that point the other colors change too much.
The P10 DNG color can be changed ever so slightly, (+ yellow) and all colors remain pretty consistent.
The CX3 shot can also be modified a small amount and all looks correct.
The actual coloring of the scene is between the CX3 jpg and the P10dng.

I did bracket all shots and chose the -0- shots as they showed the least variance.

Wj

 

[Detail Man]

I have found Ricoh's specific reference to the "knowledge base" (that I think could ... possibly ... have been modified after the release of the CX3 and before the release of the GXR P10 Module):

"Multi-Pattern Auto White Balance (Multi-Pattern AWB) or Multi-pattern AUTO, sets WB parameters for sunlight and shade areas separately. Therefore the colors of both background sunlit areas and shade areas are reproduced properly."

and

"High-quality, robust classifier data is necessary for recognition. The classifier data is gathered from an accumulated knowledge base, using many digital camera images of sunlight and shade areas. The classifier data is kept small and manageable, so that the camera can recognize sunlight and shade areas quickly and accurately to realize Multi-Pattern AWB."

See: http://www.ricoh.com/technology/tech/026.html

which also has a link to a Ricoh Technical Report (PDF) with an in-depth description dated December 2009:
http://www.ricoh.co.jp/technology/techr ... /A3501.pdf

 

[wymjym]

thanks for that DM, I wasn't aware that lookup tables for different lighting scenes was incorporated in these cameras.
I found the solution to my issue (I think), it was under the my setting mode....one can adjust individual (jpg) colors.

look here:

wj

 

[Marana]

Hey, I've found the colors to be less pleasing on the S10/GXR combo I just purchased as well! I was used to the beautiful color coming from the CX1, and although the new camera is great for less noise, the color images are a little off (green I think.) The black and whites are great, but... I had no idea that the Multi-P white balance varied from camera to camera. It is perfect in my CX1. I actually thought maybe the drearier colors were in my imagination, but I realize now that they aren't. What to do, what to do... :roll: