What's new
GR User Forum

The spot for all Ricoh GR camera users

Register for free, meet other Ricoh GR users, share your images, help others, have fun!

Tell your friends about us!

BW Ricoh - rumor

thelps

thelps

Active Member
Over on TOP (The Online Photographer) he hints at "a black-and-white only camera from Ricoh?" in the rumors section
http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...2011/12/photo-rumors-and-merry-christmas.html

I didn't know where to post this, as its not really news, (only a rumor) and it could be a GXR module or maybe a BW GRD IV (V) ?
Either way a HQ BW with no AA filter and a great lens camera would have a following I believe. There are a number of people I see post most notably Wouter Brandsma - http://wouter28mm.wordpress.com/ - who use BW a lot.

I would buy depending on its form factor.
What do you think, would you use a BW only camera?
 
My GXR is B&W by choice. I don't know how effective a B&W sensor would really be. The conversion depends on more than a tonal range, it needs the seperation of colors to get the best effect. If it was a GXR I'd buy it because I do and have always done 99% B&W.

If it was the GXR, what lens would they use? So that really rules out this camera. Maybe a version of the GRD could be possible but I wouldn't get it. It would be a very nice camera but for a small esoteric group of shooters.

Thanks for the post.... Don
 
so to take the colour filter's away and out of the sensor ... just to leave the greyscale (B&W) .

therefore (please correct) if we take an image on a dedicated sensor (without colour) then as is "perhaps" now - there would be no need to go from greyscale to colour and back to greyscale :?:

Edit : but if doesn't go through colour processing then what difference gained?

this from what i would guess ... as there would be less transitions - would make for a more honest black and white image , so would then be well worth the B&W photographer to have :cool:
It would also be much less a piece of complicated technology so therefore also most reasonable :D

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutori ... ensors.htm
 
I guess they may use a dedicated sensor, I assume there is no need to use a bayer pattern. But.. could you use the RGGB pixels from the bayer pattern anyway but have no AA filter and treat each pixel as greys only? If Ricoh is working on it, they would be limited to OEM sensors and whats available. I don't think they make any themselves. Do Pentax?

One interesting aspect of BW is that colour does have influence on the image - by this I mean do you need to choose to use the red or blue part of the spectrum for the level of each pixel. Hence in film days the use of orange or red or otherwise filters.

I do kind of assume that a dedicated BW sensor may have a Foveon (albeit BW) look to the images, with that clarity and sharpness that we have seen from them.
For camera builders profit is necessary, I suspect the cost of a re-engineer of an existing product will reduce the cost to manufacture. So a GRD IV-BW may be possible but certainly a GXR BW module would be a serious possibility.
 
Two years ago I discussed with Ricoh people about a module for the Leica M standard. Arguments did fly around and these guys didn't want to follow because the 'Open Lensor' for attaching different lenses was totally contrary to the philosphy of a sealed module with highly matched glass and sensor. Could be that they had this module hidden in the background....... :roll:

Discussing in October about the possibility of a dedicated b/w module in M mount we did and this should be the next step to expand the line up for serious shooters, please....
If Ricoh can launch this kind of module the idea of a 'Poor man's Hasselblad' with different backs (in front) of the body will confirm the flexibility of this concept. Costwise the M mount is already there with housing, shutter etc., but electronics and sensor would need some effort. But there are so many dedicated b&w shooters out there, the demand would be great and push the rest of the system as the M mount this fall did.

When the GXR system was introduced we thought that some electronic devices as hard drives or modules with connection cords for 'free-lens-positioning' would come but nothing happened until now. But different modules with properties no other manufacturer is able to offer with a conventional system makes the GXR so unique........
 
I often play with the idea of a dedicated b&w digital camera, it could be a beautiful thing if done right. I think my ideal camera would be midway between the GRD and GR1.
 
Bern, If a B&W module is produced, it will be as I stated...be for a very small group of shooters.
A module for the GXR could find its way to me. The point is that I am one of those few dedicatedB&W shooters. I think the module would be more expensive due to the cost of supply and demand.
Most shooters do color and some convert. What advantage do they get, none.
If they feel the need to convert, the option is there in the file.

So the new 16MP M module will outsell the new 12-16MP b&W module by large numbers because of options.
Options needed by the masses but not the few.
Don
 
As it is the existing M module works so well that I'd have to weigh priorities before considering replacing it just to get the 16 megapixel sensor. Improved ISO sensitivity / noise performance *might* be interesting to me but somehow I doubt it.

All that I care about is that the GXR continue to see new modules and refinements, whether they are meaningful to me or not doesn't matter - progress for others is a-ok and means that the camera continues to be supported by Ricoh which in the end is all that matters to me.
 
I really don't know what to make of a potentially mono only digital camera.

I suspect there is a relatively small number of photographers out there who have committed themselves to shooting ony in mono. At least for the time being. However, I further suspect that this is quite a small and, therefore, "niche" sector of the maket. The other thought that occurs to me is that there are so many options to obtain a mono end product straight out of the camera that a mono only camera may not be a viable proposition if that's the only true differentiator from other similar cameras offering colour reproduction as most digital cameras offer the option of "shooting in mono". From what I can gather, such cameras still record colour information, retrievable if the photographer changes their mind.

Also, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, disposing with the colour data means either losing the option to undertake a channel mixer mono conversion and enhance the tonality using red, green and blue data channels or having to use lens filters as per mono film shooters (i.e. me). Incidentally, I'm not completely IT / technology savvy, so apologies if I've missed the point.

Equally, I don't know enough about how a sensor works to understand if the absence of colour data might reduce "noise" to any significant extent or whether it might improve low-light shooting capabilities. Those are laudable goals, I must admit, but are they really enough to warrant a mono only camera in themselves?

A few years ago, I mused with some of the exhibitors at "Focus on Imaging" that it might be an interesting option to avoid some "post" processing by "pre" processing in camera - i.e. incorporating some "special effects" into the camera's menu. Though I can't claim any of the glory, there are manufacturers out there that now offer that very functionality. There are even "apps" for mobile phones to make their output look like Holgas and antique plate cameras.

As a Leica M (and R) film system user, I would be very interested in a versatile digital compact that offers full frame options for my M series lenses as (a) I enjoy focusing manually, (b) I don't think Leica lenses can be beaten and (c) it's about time that someone offered an option to the M9 at a much more realistic price. From what I can gather, it isn't as if Leica makes the electronics for the M9, so why should a red dot treble or quadruple the cost of a full frame sensor camera. Nikon manage it for £1,700 with the D700 and they use Sony sensors, tweaked to their specification.

Good luck to Ricoh with their endeavours. I'm sure they have greater marketeering minds than mine working on this and it's about time someone tried something unique in a market saturated with "me too" products - separated almost exclusively by price and cachet.
 
Would raise some interest in a niche group I'm sure.

The disadvantage of removing the bayer array (thus color info) and only record true black and white (greyscale) would be that the yellow, orange and red filters (and some others) would return to emphasize the blue sky (make it darker) etcetera. Today this is easily done in post. Maybe have them build in like some cams have a neutral density build in?

The advantage obviously would be the higher resolution and sharpness.
 
Remko, etal....
Let's say a 16mp B&W module is made.
Do youse think it would be a substantial difference compared to a 16mp regular module?
Would the final image exceed what could be produced by SEP2 and how would it differ?
I'm just wondering...
Don
 
Personally, I really like the ability to use "virtual" colour filters. Filtering in post is certainly easier than carrying a suite of b+w colour filters around, having them on the camera when I need them to be, etc, from the film days.

I doubt I would be a buyer of a B+W optimized module or camera, even though half of my images end up as B+W.
 
Don,

Not sure if it'll answer your question but there was a post on theonlinephotographer a while back discussing the merits of a b&w only digital camera:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...d-a-digital-camera-have-a-bw-only-sensor.html

Vasco

streetshooter":3fge3jrs said:
Remko, etal....
Let's say a 16mp B&W module is made.
Do youse think it would be a substantial difference compared to a 16mp regular module?
Would the final image exceed what could be produced by SEP2 and how would it differ?
I'm just wondering...
Don
Click to expand...
 
Vasco, Thanks. I read that but I am too old to believe everything I read. I've been a B&W shooter all my life.
Like Mike, I don't see carrying filters around.
SEP2 does a great job of conversion with easier options than ever were available in a wet room.
It could be an interesting module/camera but I for one will remain skeptical until I experience the merits of it.

I hope it works not technically and more importantly... financially.
The second part is the make or break issue.
Don
 
Hi Don,

having a dedicated b&w sensor would increase resolution as mentioned above. There will be no Bayer-pattern and the calculation of pixel in the RGB colours. As in music:

A Hammond organ, even based on electricity can be emulated by a synthesizer but it's not the same.......

An APS-C sensor might have the resolution of a 20 MP in common layout or even more.
 
v_roma":3fatsbrb said:
there was a post on theonlinephotographer a while back discussing the merits of a b&w only digital camera
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand his argument because much of it is predicated on how one "sees" in black and white. With film, we look through an optical viewfinder and, on the surface, see a colour representation of the subject before us. With film, learning to see in black and white is something the camera plays no role in.

The seeing process had to be developed over some time as the photographer went back and forth between making photographs and developing and printing / scanning them. The photographer would learn how their film(s) and paper(s) behaved after the fact, not while taking the photo with the camera.

When shooting b+w film, we don't have a "b+w only camera". Perhaps the addition of a colour filter appropriate to the subject, if any, helped some see in monochrome, but most of the seeing in mono happens, with a film camera, in your head. You visualize what you want, maybe even with a thought on how it'll be printed, and place your exposure accordingly - with some knowledge of what your film and paper of choice can deliver - compose and shoot.

With digital cameras already we see a scene in black and white in our finder even if we are capturing full colour raw files for later processing. Some cameras allow you to tailor the mono view with increased contrast or sharpness; some simulate colour filters. Ricoh could further support b+w shooters by allowing for in-camera colour filtering effects - applied to JPG or JPG preview (and thus the viewfinder / LCD). Fujifilm does that on the X100 and likely the X10 I'd imagine too.

Do we need more resolution or capture of detail? Maybe yes, maybe no, but who would turn away from this offer if it had no strings. Would people pay for it if the difference was remarkable? Maybe, but would they pay in numbers enough to justify the product? Maybe not.

Would such a camera help a photographer "see" better in black and white? Probably not much or any more than is already possible.
 
Bernd, ok...I gift the Hammond analogy.
Mike, Agreed completely.

Here's the thing. If a module is released, is it like an M module that I won't use. What about my A12 28 & 50?
So they make this module for B&W but it's still a limited group that will keep it. I wanted a B&W camera for years but it wasn't practical according to camera repair guys.
I wanted my RD1-s to be converted but the cost was prohibitive.

How does Ricoh do this so that the users will buy into it?
Will they offer a change in sensor for the A12 units.
I'm about images, not cameras. Once I get a camera to the point that it's not intruding on my work, I forget about it. So, what will the IMAGE offer that we don't get from what we already have.
I am not being negative about this at all. If I really understand the answer to my last question, I'll sell a grand kid to get the module....but I just don't understand the advantage.....YET.
Don
 
Yes, I agree with you Don..... To be successful, it's going to have to do things all other cameras/modules don't. That's a big ask. Then again, Ricoh is a company full of surprises for their customers/the camera world. A true photographer's company.... I'm ready to be surprised!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top