Ricoh GR review by Ming Thein

[chocolait]

Ricoh GR review:
http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/06/re ... digital-v/

and this article is about comparing the GR and Coolpix A:
http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/07/ba ... coolpix-a/

 

[riccadonna]

Oh yes, Ming Theins comparison review rules. It`s the best.

 

[thelps]

A couple of interesting things were raised. He said he wasn't sure if it was a Sony or Pentax sensor
"it’s not clear if it’s the same sensor as the K5IIs or D7000"
In the end I don't really care, so long as the IQ is there.

These two cameras seem to be about as close as any two digital cameras comparison in history.
The funny thing is when you only own one you may not necessarily miss any advantage of the other - ignorance is bliss.
In the end I'd just go out and take pictures with either. - I've ordered the Ricoh though, as its what I know best.

 

[jsrockit]

I can't take the negatives of the review serious when it is a pre-production model.

 

[Blow-in]

I can't take the negatives of the review serious when it is a pre-production model.

I tend to agree but loads of people seem happy to pre-order based on pre-production reviews - and perhaps faith in the marque.

Richard

 

[cidereye]

I can't take the negatives of the review serious when it is a pre-production model.

Agreed, that is always the problem when certain bloggers get pre-production models though.

The thing is, as I see it, many of us here myself included are long time Ricoh users and we know 101% that maybe Ricoh don't always get it right at release but one thing we are CERTAIN with as regards Ricoh is that there will be regular firmware updates that will ALWAYS solve any issues. And that is the main reason I had no fears whatsoever in pre-ordering the GR.

 

[jsrockit]

Yeah, I've never had a pre-order be a complete disaster though...

 

[riccadonna]

jsrockit, your statement- I can't take the negatives of the review serious when it is a pre-production model is a bit unclear as to whom you refer. I hope not Ming Thein as his reviews are based on actual use, he do not reviews the stuff that `s not his cup of tea and beside it he`s first of all a very good professional photographer , finally he things highly about Ricoh GR cameras anyway. I like Ricoh quite a lot which doesn`t mean in my eyes that it`s best in every discipline ( slow AF in low light for one ).

 

[jsrockit]

Yes, I was referring to the review riccadonna. If you are going to review a camera and complain about things that are most certainly part of the camera being a pre-production model, at least state that over and over.

He then went on to compare PP model to the Coolpix A, which has been out for a few months and is not a pre-production model. When it comes to PP models, you cannot take negatives so seriously because they tend to get hammered out before a real release. Once it is released with proper firmware, then the negatives become apparent and then they are review worthy. I'm sorry to have offended you and your "friend" Ming. I guarantee the focus of the Ricoh will not be as bad as stated in his review once it is not a pre-production firmware.

The reason I hate pre-production reviews is that they are still on the internet once the camera is released in its final form. This then mucks up all info about the camera and old negatives (based on PP models) become reiterated by people who don't use the camera. I've seen it over and over.

 

[riccadonna]

No problem jsrockit. I don`t feel offended at all. One thing about preproduction models. Ricoh is known , contrary to Nikon, for it`s FW updates. There were a lot of complains about AF which was improved along the road. Thus, in a way, many models could be considered as a preproduction ones since they are , like in Ricoh FW update cases, never a final ones. That goes for FW fixable software of course. The mechanics, sensor and ergonomics are pretty final and here Ming Thein gives a high score to Ricoh. Furthermore Ming Theins main concern about Ricoh is it`s rendering of color, especially the red one, which he says, could be fixed with future FW, while it`s B/W is according to him is far superior to Nikons, be it RAW or JPG. So you can`t say really he`s biased against Ricoh. Personally I can`t wait for GR even if I`m pretty happy with my GXR 28 which only main weak point is too slow AF for moving objects, something I hope GR will best. Ojala.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I like to be able to think a review is just what it purports to be. In some cases just a users opinion as we might make ourselves if we had the opportunity to have the camera in hand and walk around and take a few images. I think such a review must also take into account that if this person is a distinguished and capable photographer then his work will reflect his own capabilities as much as that of the camera itself and (with respect) may be an innocuous showcase for his own artistic expression. Also if the first look is by someone who does not delve into the engine room much we can expect very little information on the technical side - this sort of review is a "my experience" with the camera type. It is valuable to give potential users an idea of how the camera might feel in practical use and demonstrate that in very capable hands great images can be produced.

The other type of review is more "testing" and technical. Hard results and comparisons. The sort of thing gear heads can get their teeth into talking about even if the fractions of a second mean nothing in real life and the colours depend a lot on the subject and fine tuning.

None of these early reviews (at least the ones I have seen) have been rigorous enough to justify any conclusion any way. In fact the "first look" on dpreview just had sample images and a tour around the camera plus much of the hand out from the Ricoh release and was as useful as the "other two" I have seen. But from a different perspective. I used not to read reviews at all until I had my purchase in hand, but I confess to be as interested as the rest in such a significant new product as the GR. However my basic instincts remain the same - these are just early quick whip-overs to meet early release deadlines - the really serious reviews will come later, if at all commercially. The early adopter users raised in the "Ricoh Faith" will soon let us know the inside story. We tend not to be shy in pointing things out. Not only that but those that have owned and used the more serious Ricoh cameras of recent years will not be as horrified by the "complex menu system" and willing to adjust it with the skills that have come from prior experience. They will be able to soon enough tell whether the four methods of focus assist are truly a form of focus peaking and what relationship if any they have with mode1 and mode2 on the GXR. Among other things.

What I am saying is that if a reviewer has (say) come form a Sony NEX then the ability to finesse the Ricoh firmware settings would be nil. To set about doing so would be akin to working an Ouija Board and just as terrifying. I have just taken delivery of a GRDIV as I felt that I had to have this pinnacle of the GRD development phase. I have had it for a little while, played with the settings, browsed the new bits. worked out what Function button pairing does, set myself up with a good set of function button pairs after making up a little list of what pairs I might really need, what were best left on the adj button and basically in what way would the pairing give me a natural control over the camera to suit my way of doing things. Ricoh simply does not help much beyond making the tools available. The slots come empty other than "pair 1", many settings can be placed in several alternative locations, some can be easily accessed on the first page of the menu which in effect becomes yet another "quick menu". Therefore a little work is involved and perhaps a twiddle later after some experience in use. I have not really started to work out what deep settings I might store away inside 12 box modes (!) And this has been probably two weeks from someone who has made a study of setting up the GRDIII and GXR (and published a guide on it on this site). So what chance has a poor reviewer to explore and set up the GR and make comment on the menus with a publishing deadline to meet? Especially with not confirmed background in Ricoh products and no particular interest or need to go through this process. This is a Ricoh-geek affair only. Ricoh gets no brownie point at all from reviewers in this area where it excels beyond all others.

I would strongly advise Ricoh if they might ever listen to give serious user of their earlier products and chance to work over new models as handing them out to the non-Ricoh-experienced just gets the configuration side completely overlooked or the "complex menu system" standard review report on what the firmware innards might do for the user. At least the dpreview effort did mention that there were four methods of focus assist and tried to show one of them but did go on to say that they were only "focus peaking like" as if they had seen focus peaking assist somewhere else (Sony's perhaps) and as they did not look "proper" focus peaking and Ricoh called them "Focus Assist" they were not going to chance the arm by suggesting that Ricoh, the seeming master of the best focus peaking system in the business, had somehow developed not one but four second-rate focus assist methods and dumped on the focus peaking assist algorithms that were in the GXR and also in a single form included in the K-01 and Pentax Q.

Ming Thein says he is a Ricoh addict then effectively goes on to ignore the firmware under the hood. There has recently been more than enough discussion about the lack of need to do much more on a camera other than twist the dials on top and play with EV and ISO. Certainly this works and if that is all that you do you might get great images. Also whilst this type of testing comparison brings the GR (and the GRD and GXR) on to a level playing field with other similar type cameras, it does completely ignore where Ricoh cameras excel: Testing the depths of what you can custom adjust on the GR - as always Ricoh cameras that are under test have the simple "complex menu system" put down without further ado. If anything is a more put off to a non Ricoh person on reading a test is the words "complex" and "menu" in the same sentence.

I ask: "where are the reviews that extol the myriad of great custom setting that Ricoh makes available? Where are the worked examples of how Ricoh cameras can be set up to faithfully meet the instant special needs of a given user?" Or are we suffering unnecessary firmware overload and all we need is the dials on top, faithful reds and a very fast focus. Make Ricoh cameras just the same as the rest, no need for them to have cult status, and everyone will be pleased that it's uniqueness has changed to "everyday bland just like all the others"."

I am bound to get at least one reply "we don't need all that menu twiddling rot". I rest my case.

But until someone reviews just what the GR hides under it's firmware hood surely we are not really comparing apples with oranges but only testing the GR against what the less well firmware endowed Nikon A can do as they both come out of the box. Anyone knowing "Ricoh" is that when you pull the camera out of the box you might have a month or more adjusting settings before you are satisfied that the camera has become an extension of your thought process. No further menu adjusting is necessary. = personal perfection.

Tom
Garrulous as ever

 

[jsrockit]

So you can`t say really he`s biased against Ricoh. Personally I can`t wait for GR even if I`m pretty happy with my GXR 28 which only main weak point is too slow AF for moving objects, something I hope GR will best. Ojala.

I never said he was biased though... I just said I can't take the negatives of the review seriously until it's shipped to actual users. Then we can really find out the negatives of the camera. I'm super excited for the GR. Two more weeks!

 

[wok64]

Tom, you're certainly right in the sense that there is kind of a "I'm the first" competition between reviewers on the net. It's clear that this introduces the risk of lack of depth and quality. So one is well advised to take such reviews with a grain of salt. I still liked Ming Thein's (p)review a lot. It's actually worth to read the deiscussion too because he addresses some additional topics there (e.g. how useful the snap mode is with an APS-C sensor)

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Tom, you're certainly right in the sense that there is kind of a "I'm the first" competition between reviewers on the net. It's clear that this introduces the risk of lack of depth and quality. So one is well advised to take such reviews with a grain of salt. I still liked Ming Thein's (p)review a lot. It's actually worth to read the deiscussion too because he addresses some additional topics there (e.g. how useful the snap mode is with an APS-C sensor)

I think we all basically agree that these early reviews are useful and a good read. We appreciate them.

The problem in my book is that they are only "quick-opinions" and some of those that have read them are treating words said as authorative fact. Therefore we are getting serious debates and moans about issues that very well prove not to be issues at all once our own cameras arrive.

Some are even basing purchase decisions on the words published in these reviews. I think I know cameras well enough to realise that 1) Ricoh makes great cameras 2) All new cameras can have teething problems, but 3) These quick looks are so brief that the reviewers don't even get into the menu system and impressions can be mistaken 4) If a reviewer does not find something to "complain" about then they are thought of as a simple minded fanboy and their review is little regarded.

Therefore if anything is thought "not quite right" there seem to be a horde of those eager to seize on every negative word and blow the whole matter right out of proportion.

Therefore I find these early "first quick impressions" worth reading but I do not set a lot of importance to them and leave myself with an open mind.

I was just noting that by comparing the "camera as a box" with the knobs, handling, weight, size and images captured similarly to another is very simplistic. It means that the huge Ricoh firmware support is completely ignored. Not suggesting that this is beyond the wit of average reviewer but it might be beyond the threshhold of boredom for the average reader of early reviews.

Therefore the essence of what makes a Ricoh camera extraordinary is completely ignored and we are down to wrangling over "reds" and how quickly the camera might focus. If that is all there is to a Ricoh camera then Ricoh might as well just give up - now.

I buy Ricoh cameras because they are a thinking photographer's dream machine. Those who ignore this in their review just provide an elementary read for popular consumption. I hate to say it: "no exceptions".

If a reviewer were to say "I think that the GR is a thinking photographer's dream machine". The response would be: "prove it, we want sample images, how fast is the focus, are the 'red's' correct, etc, etc" .

If the reviewer said "if you go into the very complex menu system ... you can set this camera up in every sort of way ..."

The response would be: "boring, boring, boring .... that sounds like having to use my brain .... I care not for menus the buttons and dials are all I need, I am only interested in image quality and the latest greatest sensor .... and I will never admit that I only use my cameras on "auto" anyway".

Tom

 

[thelps]

When I read any review on any item I have my "internet review filter" on full alert. The reviewers dispense both facts and opinions. If they dispense unbelievable opinions I move on. In the end I review the camera more fully myself. So far all 4 iterations of the GR Digital series have been improvements with a few subtle changes along the way, no changes that have stopped me making images. I am sure the GR will be a fine tool.

None of my general viewers (except forum users) could careless what the image was taken with - in fact they are bored with me if I tell them. No one except other photographer types have ever asked.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

When I read any review on any item I have my "internet review filter" on full alert. The reviewers dispense both facts and opinions. If they dispense unbelievable opinions I move on. In the end I review the camera more fully myself. So far all 4 iterations of the GR Digital series have been improvements with a few subtle changes along the way, no changes that have stopped me making images. I am sure the GR will be a fine tool.

None of my general viewers (except forum users) could careless what the image was taken with - in fact they are bored with me if I tell them. No one except other photographer types have ever asked.

Tim you can express much the same opinion so elegantly with so many fewer words ...

Tom

 

[thelps]

Tim you can express much the same opinion so elegantly with so many fewer words ...

Tom

thank Tom, I do enjoy your more "flowery" approach, its entertaining.

To set about doing so would be akin to working an Ouija Board and just as terrifying.

is just a GOLD comment IMO. I had a chuckle over that one!

To a degree I feel I like some products because of an intangible essence they seem to have. I can honestly say I came to this conclusion when I first saw the GR range, both film and digital before I read about them online. I'd still make use of and make images with the Nikon A but somehow I think I will enjoy the GR more. :? In other words its not all about IQ, numbers and functionality, it can be about the intangibles too.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Tim you can express much the same opinion so elegantly with so many fewer words ...

Tom

thank Tom, I do enjoy your more "flowery" approach, its entertaining.

To set about doing so would be akin to working an Ouija Board and just as terrifying.

is just a GOLD comment IMO. I had a chuckle over that one!

To a degree I feel I like some products because of an intangible essence they seem to have. I can honestly say I came to this conclusion when I first saw the GR range, both film and digital before I read about them online. I'd still make use of and make images with the Nikon A but somehow I think I will enjoy the GR more. :? In other words its not all about IQ, numbers and functionality, it can be about the intangibles too.

I hope my style is entertaining as it is dry old subject. (camera talk)

I think it is a case of like minds here. I get bit frustrated with the talk about digging a garden bed and everyone wants to say "a shovel shifts dirt quicker, so you hardly need a spade". "Ah yes", I say, "but there is a certain quaint pleasure in the craftsmanship of wielding a good spade correctly". But I suppose, on reflection, that a backhoe might be even quicker. It is not just digging the dirt is is how you dig it. No doubt with some common sense and ingenuity the final result might not look that much different.

Like gardening, there is more to the satisfaction of it than just shifting the greatest amount of soil as quickly as possible.

There is something in the law of contracts, which among other notions, is the condition that you don't really have a contract if each party is thinking that it is about different things. Hence in camera-argument terms we might see a serious argument about the various (limited scope) merits of cameras and a decision offered to the listener. However the Ricoh-aware listener knows that once you step outside the limited scope of the argument there are certain things that are unique to the Ricoh way. Of course the non-Ricoh person might have very limited (if any) knowledge of the things that are unique to Ricoh cameras and if these are mentioned they are waved airily away as inconsequential, too complicated, not worth worrying about. Much like some clauses in the contract are more important to the other body and cannot be simply ignored if the contract is to be completed successfully.

Therefore there can be no contract for a valid argument until these feature are also rolled into the negotiation and analysed properly. However "fat chance" when everyone can know and have a say about the manhood of sensor size, image IQ and the speed of focus, few also know about the boring subject of the merits of the firmware in a camera. When you talk about firmware and menus they are either ignored or waved away as the subject is far too complex for any properly smart person to be bothered about. For most the menu is something that once you buy a new camera then they are most necessary to set the date and time and then you forget them (of course).

I unfortunately give the impression that I spend my life digging into and changing menus. This is of course a terrible lie - I spend all my life writing posts for camera forums

Tom