Nothing new from Ricoh, but why am I disappointed?

[chrisa]

Photokina 2012 has opened to the public, but Ricoh has introduced no new products, nor has it announced any future products. There had been quite a bit of tension/excitement/hope building up in the last few weeks on this forum and DPR to mention another. I felt it too.

Why am I so disappointed that there is nothing new from Ricoh? My GXR A12 50 still takes very nice pictures (and probably nicer pictures than my compositions can get out out it). I really liked my old GR10 before it broke in an accident. I don't have any shares in Ricoh. Yet I feel somehow down that there was absolutely nothing new from Ricoh. It got me thinking about camera brand fans being like sports fans (!).

I think that I must have become a Ricoh fan (but not fanboy). I'm beginning to think that it's a bit like supporting a football (soccer team) - you begin to associate yourself with the team/brand and talk about it positively - you follow it's ups and downs. You feel excited when they bring in new players/camera (units)/firmware updates. You feel a bit worried when other teams get a new player/camera that has better skills/ISO/focus speed, but you hope that the management is being prudent and will get in some some up and coming players that will actually turn into big stars. The big competition/pitch for market share starts at the international arena/Photokina and you just hope that a new player/camera will be introduced, and if not introduced, then the new player announced, or the plans from the management will be announced to bring in a new player/pre-announcement/roadmap. Or else how will the team cope against the opposition. Well the competition has started and the other teams appear to be scoring all the goals. When your team loses a game, you don't feel so happy. When Ricoh brings nothing to the biggest photo exhibition in the market, you feel like the team is going to do very badly this season - what strategy do they have? How will they keep their fans? The photography market has less loyalty attached to it than football. Probably. I hope that a new signing will soon appear. Why do I feel such investment in the Ricoh team? Is it just me?

Enough analogies. I know that Ricoh have in the past had separate announcements outside trade shows, but why miss the BIGGEST opportunity of the year to at least say SOMETHING? How hard would it be to have an announcement in Japan a couple of weeks before Photokina. Is it that Ricoh management think of the camera section as a hobby venture for the company, or that they are not really interested interested in expanding the market outside Japan? Why mention the GRD zoom and the product that will fill a gap in the market earlier in the year if you do not even give a few more hints at Photokina? Maybe they will. For now though I am still a Ricoh fan, but one who is a bit confused about the marketing strategy of my chosen team!

chrisa

 

[andrewteee]

Well said.

 

[thelps]

Is it that Ricoh management think of the camera section as a hobby venture for the company, or that they are not really interested interested in expanding the market outside Japan?

Ricoh are a large printer/copier manufacturer and cameras are believed to be a specialty for them.
If the camera section is making a profit then management won't see a problem I will surmise.
I'd like to see something as well but it seems up till now at least that Ricoh's release steps are bigger than others, "the others" releasing smaller increments more often.

Sit and wait and try someone elses product if time and money allows. I recently bought a OM-D partly because I had some lenses but it filled a need.
I have a DP2 that I still use and have a DP2M on my radar!

 

[chrisa]

Sit and wait and try someone elses product if time and money allows. I recently bought a OM-D partly because I had some lenses but it filled a need.
I have a DP2 that I still use and have a DP2M on my radar!

I would like a fixed lens camera with a moderate wide angle/normal lens like the DP2(M), but I really like hand held available light photography with fast autofocus (I came from a Konica Hexar AF) and I don't think the sigma would help me there. I guess I am considering the nikon 1 with F1.8 50mm equivalent, but a Ricoh GRD with 40mm equivalent (or even a fast zoom or GXR equivalent module) and phase detection windows would do the trick nicely. The Nikon has better high ISO and faster focus in good light - good for photographing the kids (but the camera is not so good for user interface/customisation). The J1 with the F2.8 27mm equivalent is only £300 in the UK at the moment and with the 50mm equiv would only just be more expensive than the GRD IV, so it might be a good deal.

Chris

 

[wok64]

Is it that Ricoh management think of the camera section as a hobby venture for the company, or that they are not really interested interested in expanding the market outside Japan?

Ricoh are a large printer/copier manufacturer and cameras are believed to be a specialty for them.
If the camera section is making a profit then management won't see a problem I will surmise.
I'd like to see something as well but it seems up till now at least that Ricoh's release steps are bigger than others, "the others" releasing smaller increments more often.

Sit and wait and try someone elses product if time and money allows. I recently bought a OM-D partly because I had some lenses but it filled a need.
I have a DP2 that I still use and have a DP2M on my radar!

You´re right Tim. Still the fact that they bought Pentax indicates that Ricoh Management is at least a somewhat ambitious to make more money with photography. This raised my expectation. Maybe too much, but let´s see. Does someone know when Ricoh announced the latest product? Was it the A16 module?

Wolfgang

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Is it that Ricoh management think of the camera section as a hobby venture for the company, or that they are not really interested interested in expanding the market outside Japan?

Ricoh are a large printer/copier manufacturer and cameras are believed to be a specialty for them.
If the camera section is making a profit then management won't see a problem I will surmise.
I'd like to see something as well but it seems up till now at least that Ricoh's release steps are bigger than others, "the others" releasing smaller increments more often.

Sit and wait and try someone elses product if time and money allows. I recently bought a OM-D partly because I had some lenses but it filled a need.
I have a DP2 that I still use and have a DP2M on my radar!

You´re right Tim. Still the fact that they bought Pentax indicates that Ricoh Management is at least a somewhat ambitious to make more money with photography. This raised my expectation. Maybe too much, but let´s see. Does someone know when Ricoh announced the latest product? Was it the A16 module?

Wolfgang

The A16 last of a list of items to be produced from an old road map of modules. There have been no additions to this information.

We have assumed lots of things because no direction has been given. Road maps tend to become blood oaths to consumers that must be fulfilled. The opposite is nothing, consumers don't like that either. Especially consumers who are card-carrying members of the Ricoh Team Sports Club

Several have commented that Ricoh is alive and well and making cameras that will be made quite soon now. One morning we might wake up to a surprise.

Meanwhile even a little information on "general intentions" would give us something to gossip about and speculate on.

In reality I guess that all options have been open - a delay due to the acquisition of Pentax has left a hole in new product production. That "hole" has moved forward to right about when something should be happening due to lead time. Ricoh just does not have anything market ready and I guess when they do we will certainly here about it soon enough

I seem to recollect that most of the recent Ricoh products made were in the shops within a month of being first announced. Therefore do we want some sales-talk of something well over the horizon or hard new of something that we can grasp soon after we get old about it?

Tom

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

As Tom said on the other thread, we can use the time it takes for Ricoh to rationalize the merger with Pentax to learn how to use our cameras better. I know I still have a lot to learn about setting up my GXR for quick changes of settings between landscape and street shooting, and varying light in different circumstances where trade-offs have to be made between shutter speed and ISO. Practice makes perfect.

If anyone at Ricoh is listening, I still think a GXR unit using pentax' new Q sensor and a new design constant F2.8 f80-640 equiv telezoom would be a great addition to the system as a complement to the 24-85 A16 Unit. The 'superzoom bridge camera' is large and growing market, and a system which gave you all that plus the ability to swap for an APS-C prime on the spot is an attractive proposition. It also makes sense in terms of the form factor and weight of the GXR in my opinion.

Breathe new life into the system by bringing in a whole large class of customers and redefine the 'bridge camera' market by adding high quality interchangeability to it. Winner!

 

[Tom Caldwell]

As Tom said on the other thread, we can use the time it takes for Ricoh to rationalize the merger with Pentax to learn how to use our cameras better. I know I still have a lot to learn about setting up my GXR for quick changes of settings between landscape and street shooting, and varying light in different circumstances where trade-offs have to be made between shutter speed and ISO. Practice makes perfect.

If anyone at Ricoh is listening, I still think a GXR unit using pentax' new Q sensor and a new design constant F2.8 f80-640 equiv telezoom would be a great addition to the system as a complement to the 24-85 A16 Unit. The 'superzoom bridge camera' is large and growing market, and a system which gave you all that plus the ability to swap for an APS-C prime on the spot is an attractive proposition. It also makes sense in terms of the form factor and weight of the GXR in my opinion.

Breathe new life into the system by bringing in a whole large class of customers and redefine the 'bridge camera' market by adding high quality interchangeability to it. Winner!

Rog, the GXR system allows all sorts of lens mount modules to be made and used - the Q is always a possibility. I have also wondered whether the Q mount itself will support a larger sensor behind it. Ideally, and if possible a CX or GRD style body with a Q mount and 2/3" or 1" sensor would be a fine little beast of a thing.

In case you did not know I documented the My Mode settings for the GRDIII and GXR in two spreadsheets which are somewhere on this site. When downloaded they work through some (in)expert proposed set-up configurations for the modes. The biggest help I think is that they document all the possible settings in the modes, identify those settings that apply to all modes and cross reference each setting back to the page in the manual where it is discussed. Also the shortcuts are listed in one handy place. if you cannot find them under the GRDIII listings or the GXR general listings of the blog let me know and I will try and find them for you. The GRDIII was done first and the GXR is fairly similar but with a few extra twists. The settings are also colour coded for recommended, not sure, and nothing changed.

Tom

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

Thanks Tom, I'll have a look for it. Pentax and Ricoh must cross fertilise if the joint venture is to succeed. A Q mount for GXR makes so much sense. It brings a new range of lenses into play which are affordable and light. The F1.8 prime is a gem, I tested it outside a Jessops store and was impressed with it's IQ in poor light. The tiny cmos sensor performs well at low ISO (much as the P10 does), and the wide max aperture of the standard prime certainly plays to its strengths. And with the K adaptor allowing you to put an old 50mm F1.4 Ricoh PK fit prime on the front giving you the equivalent of a 300mm telephoto, well, the possibilities are endless.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Strategically Ricoh only have a limited number of modern lens designs. There is no doubt that they could make more and that was probably the intent of the GXR. Significantly the P10 and S10 arrived as early modules and the A12 24 must also have heritage to the GRD lens. 100% new lenses were a 50mm and the A16 zoom. It will obviously have taken Rioch a very long time to come up with a wide range of lens modules for the GXR, even though there is no doubt that they could do so.

Bringing out the plug in lens facility with the A12 mount immediately opened the door to a wide range of lenses that are immediately available. Ricoh made no pretense of starting a new mount sytem and kludging adapters for manual lenses to what was basically something barely compatible like other manufacturers did.

By acquiring Pentax Ricoh has become the adoptive parent of two mount systems: the Q and the K mount, and I suppose the 645 medium format mount as well. The K bayonet and the M42 screw are also almost blood brothers. Adding Ricoh's own modular mount system to this one might wonder if Ricoh needs access to any more mounts. The Q adapts nicely to cine format lenses to add another layer of cream to the cake.

Therefore I cannot see Ricoh looking for another mount system and to start designing even more lenses from scratch for sale to a small base of customers.

One thing that I have asked (not having the technical knowledge myself) is whether the Q mount system had "room" to address a larger sensor. One of the problems with the Q mount that I see is that every adapted lens is a telephoto, and some are pretty extreme. Opting for a larger sensor would reduce that crop factor but there might be problems with existing made for Q mount lenses even if it could in fact be do-able.

If it were possible then a replaceable lensed Q mount GRD/CX with larger sensor would be a very attractive camera.

Alternatively a stripped back - throw away the flash unit - dispense with the top row of buttons - version of the GXR mount made as small as possible might just give a camera body nearing GRD size with the regular GXR mount rails. Minimalist but with access to all the existing GXR goodies. Slip a regular Q mount module into this and perhaps we are starting to come into the GXR modular vision of things.

Make yet another camera back with built in evf, slr-style grip and profesional level buffer support and mate it to a K mount module (maybe a FF sensor?) and we have a GXR variant that can do second duty as a birder or sports photographer's dream. This type of back does not need to be made on the theory of "as small as possible" - small certainly, but give good balance and grip on something where the lens size dictates the method of use.

So mix and match GXR parts and make up the camera of your choice. From the GRD size with M mount module and RF lenses to the slr-style back and huge telephoto. Click, click, click and you have made up the camera of your choice, and hopefully they all work the same and remember their settings.

Nothing wrong in putting a M mount module on a slr-style GXR back with professional level grunt.

Tom

 

[Khortal]

Photokina 2012 has opened to the public, but Ricoh has introduced no new products, nor has it announced any future products

Why am I so disappointed that there is nothing new from Ricoh? It got me thinking about camera brand fans being like sports fans (!).

I think that I must have become a Ricoh fan (but not fanboy). I'm beginning to think that it's a bit like supporting a football (soccer team) - you begin to associate yourself with the team/brand and talk about it positively - you follow it's ups and downs. You feel excited when they bring in new players/camera (units)The big competition/pitch for market share starts at the international arena you feel like the team is going to do very badly this season - what strategy do they have? How will they keep their fans? The photography market has less loyalty attached to it than football. Probably. I hope that a new signing will soon appear.

chrisa

I dont mind a little sport every now and again chrisa .... i can watch the Top Level players /Teams - and of course they will give great entertainment ... but i dont necessarily trust them - this perhaps because i question them and their motives - who they 'really' serve - is what i am seeing of truly honest value ? or is it manipulated only to direct a certain desire ?

Of course - the game is feed and to keep the trough full of scoffing heads it needs to be filled in the regular :lol: ... but then - it is for those that need it - this addiction to habit - as without it they will jump to the nearest trough without a thought or care for the quality of product

..... and so perhaps, Ricoh has a more healthy philosophy

Kort .

 

[chrisa]

Kort

Thanks for the reply. I agree that Ricoh think very carefully about their products - I like that philosophy. They still think carefully about their products even after they have brought them out (firmware updates), but it is the communication aspect and their apparent intentions for Ricoh in the global market that confuse me.

What I found strange (hence starting this post) is that there was no announcement, or even announcement about an announcement like they did with the A16 zoom, but now it seems that Ricoh guys on the stand might have been giving out little bits of information (one rumour on DPR of a 17mm module and now on this forum of a 35mm module from a very new member - could be one and the same if the crop factor is 2). Why give out info to visitors to the stand and not to the market/any camera blog/respected photography site?!!

There also seem to have been very few, if any, direct interviews with Ricoh (specific) camera representatives at Photokina.Why? Why wouldn't they want to be interviewed, or at least say a little more in the interviews with Pentax - the only thing that came out of those interviews appears to be that they made possibly negative noises about a body with built in EVF. Hopefully that means there is still a future for the GXR. Even if Ricoh didn't want to give away specifics on a new module, they could have at least told people that the system was still alive and that they were developing new modules.

Anyway I should go and take more pictures with the ol' GXR and not worry...

Chris

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Kort

Thanks for the reply. I agree that Ricoh think very carefully about their products - I like that philosophy. They still think carefully about their products even after they have brought them out (firmware updates), but it is the communication aspect and their apparent intentions for Ricoh in the global market that confuse me.

What I found strange (hence starting this post) is that there was no announcement, or even announcement about an announcement like they did with the A16 zoom, but now it seems that Ricoh guys on the stand might have been giving out little bits of information (one rumour on DPR of a 17mm module and now on this forum of a 35mm module from a very new member - could be one and the same if the crop factor is 2). Why give out info to visitors to the stand and not to the market/any camera blog/respected photography site?!!

There also seem to have been very few, if any, direct interviews with Ricoh (specific) camera representatives at Photokina.Why? Why wouldn't they want to be interviewed, or at least say a little more in the interviews with Pentax - the only thing that came out of those interviews appears to be that they made possibly negative noises about a body with built in EVF. Hopefully that means there is still a future for the GXR. Even if Ricoh didn't want to give away specifics on a new module, they could have at least told people that the system was still alive and that they were developing new modules.

Anyway I should go and take more pictures with the ol' GXR and not worry...

Chris

Chris

A built in evf might go with a larger back with slr type grip and a professional level shot to shot buffer. This might be released at the same time as a Pentax K fully automatic module with a sensible-sized sensor. ie: truly make the GXR "type" into a mix and match system and capable of being a high-level evf replacement for a dslr and at the same time a mount for larger dslr/slr lenses.

However the concept of a small-as-possible widely-functional body seems wedded to the concept of an evf-less body similar to the current GXR back. It is not so much that a slim evf-included GXR back could not be made in a similar fashion to the NEX7 by scrapping the inbuilt flash perhaps but more that a small volume product would have to support two fairly similar parallel body types. My suggesting for a faux-dslr body might look more like an OM-D or Samsung NX10 or even a compact dslr and might be more competition for the current Pentax dslr models or the K-01 than with the current GXR camera back type. But maybe we are not ready for this yet? The dslr and K-01 may have some way yet to go.

I have argued before for an alternative plug-in evf. One that is as slim as possible (metal body?) that would fit as closely to the body as possible and have low-snag level edges (and fixed-horizontal). The idea would be for an evf that could be left on-camera semi-permanently if desired without catching or breaking (or getting in the way when stored). By making such an evf as an add-on the existing GXR body could be made do double duty without the need to design, make, stock and parallel-update a second GXR camera body type. The current evf is very useful in its own way but I find it to awkward to carry separately and too prone to be broken if left on the camera. Not to even mention it's hi-rise shape that makes it equally awkward to carry with other camera gear when left on-camera.

I also note that Pentax with it's K-01, Canon with it's EOS-M (?) an not a few others seem to have decided that the evf is simply not going to happen for this style of camera - if small is beautiful then it is more beautiful indeed without any prospect of an evf, not even a plug-in one.

Tom

 

[adanac]

Even if Ricoh didn't want to give away specifics on a new module, they could have at least told people that the system was still alive and that they were developing new modules.

+1

Ricoh can ill afford for people to think they are dead unless of course they are dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Even if Ricoh didn't want to give away specifics on a new module, they could have at least told people that the system was still alive and that they were developing new modules.

+1

Ricoh can ill afford for people to think they are dead unless of course they are dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

If you rely on facts then there are no facts. Hope and wishful thinking are hardly good enough. And yet of the other hand I have similar angst about the direction Canon might take. One can hardly classify it the same as the Ricoh situation. As a person with a big investment in EOS EF glass I surely would like to know if and when Canon might propose to bring out an EVIL type camera system (natively) at semi-professional level at least or whether they intend to pursue the dslr type forever. They did bring out a half way house called the EF-M (I think) but I only "think" as this was only a sort of half hearted "entry level" reply to show their fans they were also "not-dead" and still required an adapter to run EF lenses. So if their EF lenses were not so confoundedly hard to make work on another brand body I would be doing so today. Long live reverse engineering.

Meanwhile I have held off upgrading my dslr bodies waiting for a sign, any sign, a rough roadmap, anything that might let me know if there might be a competent high level proper-EVIL-type from Canon. Nope the future is assumed by all Canon mavins - more and more body variations to plug every dslr niche known and a few more invented. Great gear and being Canon, it lasts. But I did not want to spend $3,500-$4,000 on a 5DII body to find an EVIL-type equivalent next off the rank. Nor does the 5DIII make me confident that it is not the last of it's line, be it 5DIV or Golly-gosh - the FF-5D-EVIL incarnate. GXR bodies might be expensive but they are cheaper than 5D ones (I know that the 5D has a FF sensor - but his does not stop Canon regularly obsoleting them). So lack of facts, together with hope and wishful thinking are not exclusive Ricoh traits. I might yet have to be dragged screaming to the alter of a 5DIII despite my "wait and see" decision.

As a sideline issue. I was just using three different canon dslr bodies last night - close enough related really - 30D, 50D and 5D, but they all had slight differences in their control layouts and functions. If using one at a time by upgrading and you would hardly notice. Using them together in parallel it was noticeable but hardly a real bother and hardly worth commenting upon except that the two GXR bodies I had taken along to "test" them were so much easier and intuitive and of course both worked exactly the same - how mature and professional this was.

Tom