Disappointed with R8 image quality

[waloszek]

Hi all,

After all, I am somewhat disappointed with the image quality of the R8: Too much sharpening, too much "painting" even when set to soft, too bluish tint, too "muddy" colors, to name a few issues... Most of these isues can be mended via firmware updates (including an option for white balance preset), but usually updates rarely implement fundamental changes (the docs would have to be rewritten...).
As Pavel from time to time reveals that he has "connections" to Ricoh, he is my last resort for pressing Ricoh to implement improvements to the R8 image quality. Scaling images down to 7 or 8 MP cannot be the solution!

Best regards,
Gerd

 

[odklizec]

Hi Gerd,

I will surely send a note to Ricoh with all your (and mine) R8 complaints. Unfortunately, my influence in Ricoh is zero to none I'm "sure" that at least some of my comments are passed to the appropriate persons or departments. But I have no feedback about them anymore.

Personally, I think the R8 and GRDII problems are all about marketing. R8 should be a consumer camera with direct "printable" result. And this is (in my humble opinion) why the R8 files are so oversharpened and so strongly processed, even at "low" settings. This is also why the GRDII JPEG output is so "clean". Ricoh marketing guys probably read all that GRD reviews, which crucified GRD for its level of noise. So they completely changed the NR strategy and here we are. There is much less noise in JPEGs. Unfortunately, also much less details and mainly, it lost the "GRD" bite.

This is the problem with almost all reviews. They are made for "consumers"..not for photographers. Reviewers will never tell the people that the unprocessed noise can add an unexplainable bite to the photos. And that this "bite" is something people really like on GRD photos. But you know, reviewers said the noise IS a problem so the camera manufacturers does their best to keep it under control at any cost.

I would not expect any major change in R8 FW. I'm almost sure there is a successor ready or very close to production But I really hope they will listen our complaints regarding the GRDII.

 

[waloszek]

Thank you, Pavel, for your reply!
Gerd

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Pavel

I should post more on your forum. It is more from lack of habit than anything else, but I have bought myself an R8 and after some initial euphoria on its looks and controls my subsequent reaction was disappointment at the images it produced.

You have already answered Gerd on the attitutude of Ricoh in trying to please the masses and at the same time causing problems with their enthusiast owners.

My enthusiasm has resulted in many follow-on sales of Ricoh cameras and my lack of enthusiasm and the same feeling in others such as Gerd will have a disproportionate effect in the opposite direction.

I will just mention that I seem to have found a work around for the excessive smoothing - this is to set the auto-high from default of 400 ISO to 1600 ISO (the maximum) - for me this helps a lot with smoothing in all but the auto ISO settings. The Ricoh R8 manual states that auto-ISO maxes at 200 ISO for non-flash photography and 400 ISO when flash is used. Obviously this is not a lot of latitude and the smoothing algorythm kicks in pretty early to assist the mechanical IS in an effort to avoid the higher ISO grain. Ricoh also warn that setting the auto-high above the default will cause some grain. Obviously there is an amount of paranioa about creating any grain at all. I have also found that in my dabbling that on default settings the shutter speed seems to have to be over 1/150 at telephoto before the smoothing algorythm backs off. Clearly this is a pretty fast shutter speed in many cases and there is no way that many will ever see no-smoothed images at telephoto.

My unproved fondings seem to indicate that auto-high = 1600 allows the algorythm more latitude and because the user has said "I can accept grain" its use of smoothing is not so aggressive. I think that this reasoning is quite logical when some thought is given.

Gerd does not agree with my findings and I quite accept that point of view and the matter remains open for others to do their own tests and chime in with their thoughts.

Ricoh have told me that there is no method of switching off smoothing but this does not mean that less smoothed images can be made if the auto high is set to 1600 ISO. I have a not-smoothed image taken at 100 ISO to show that it is possible to capture low-ISO images without smoothing.

I have gone so far as to declare that the R8 set to auto-high 1600 produces images not that different to the R4 - and that is a big proposition to make (smile).

I am a self confessed Ricoh freak and know them well enough to get the most out of them. I have seen no need to upgrade from my trusty R4 and will still keep that as my rough and ready go everywhere 7x optical carry about. The R8 is a more sophisticated looking piece of equipment and whilst the R4 merged into the tourist crowd and kept its true capabilities hidden inside its plebean looks the R8 needs the designer sunnies and the cafe latte. But looks are deceptive and I find the R8 just a more developed and sophisticated R4 in a sleek box. Perhaps gone is the fact that the R4 produced better real images than the lcd previewed and it might now be the other way around.

The R8 has just about reached the pinnacle of less is more in user intuitive interface. The controls are as right as any camera I have ever owned. And other Ricoh cameras are the standard that has to be met and bettered.

Oh - and photographs? I can already see where the comments from other early adopters of "extra smoothing" are coming from. My first experience with the R8 imaging was one of great disappointment that such a finely made camera was spoiled by excessive image smoothing (yuk). Gone was the fine film-like grainy images with high resolution such a great feature of other Ricoh cameras.

That was until I found the trick of setting auto-high = 1600 in the shootings menu. This apparently turns off the worst of the smoothing algorythm - now the usual low-smear Ricoh-type images can be enjoyed.

My own mini-review posted on the dpreview camera database:

"I am a self confessed Ricoh freak and know them well enough to get the most out of them. I have seen no need to upgrade from my trusty R4 and will still keep that as my rough and ready go everywhere 7x optical carry about. The R8 is a more sophisticated looking piece of equipment and whilst the R4 merged into the tourist crowd and kept its true capabilities hidden inside its plebean looks the R8 needs the designer sunnies and the cafe latte. But looks are deceptive and I find the R8 just a more developed and sophisticated R4 in a sleek box. Perhaps gone is the fact that the R4 produced better real images than the lcd previewed and it might now be the other way around.

The R8 has just about reached the pinnacle of less is more in user intuitive interface. The controls are as right as any camera I have ever owned. And other Ricoh cameras are the standard that has to be met and bettered.

Oh - and photographs? I can already see where the comments from other early adopters of "extra smoothing" are coming from. My first experience with the R8 imaging was one of great disappointment that such a finely made camera was spoiled by excessive image smoothing (yuk). Gone was the fine film-like grainy images with high resolution such a great feature of other Ricoh cameras.

This is one fine little carry-about camera - if you are looking for a cheap point and shoot you had best look elsewhere - this camera is for those that get enjoyment out of taking the images and taking them well.

Can't find the native b&w mode - I fear that Ricoh have binned it (they have) - pity because grainy film-like high ISO black and whites are a Ricoh standard in themselves.

There is a "scene mode" b&w but the settings are pretty well fixed and far too restrictive.

I had become disappointed at the level of smoothing applied to the images. However I have found that setting "Auto-High=1600" in the shootings menu seems to turn the smoothing algorythm off and gives a much more acceptable result no matter what other setting is used. I recommend that this be tried it has a magic effect on the imaging performance.

A b&w capture mode - then we might again see the more grainy images that have been one of the joys of their other models. Seems like the b&w grainy images are still possible but require a conversion by computer software - another step but at least you still have the high-iso colour-noised original so that you can appreciate the b&w version that much better."


Tom Caldwell

 

[odklizec]

Thank you for your great report Tom! Pity I can't post much in these days too. I hope my time situation will improve soon.

You are right about the R8 NR. It's really pity to see that such nice camera is degraded by too strong in-camera processing. I'm curious why the camera manufacturers don't add the NR OFF in their cameras? I mean, people should be able to choose what's best for their style of photography. I personally don't use any NR, except of color noise suppression. And even this color suppression is done on limited number of my shots (usually, only on shots above ISO400). While living in Ricoh community, I did several important findings At first, people who buy GRDII are not casual shooters. They need more controls than casual shooters. And another finding.. People who buy GRDII buy also "R" range cameras, mainly because of zoom! It would be great to have the same (or close to) GRD feature set in small "R" body. But I'm afraid, it's unlikely this will ever happen.